Tweaking a whistle with a dirty/harsh sound

[pancelticpiper]

About the ramp alignment with the windway, I just looked down through windway of the three best-playing Generations I have

1) c1980 Generation C, unmodified.

2) Generation Bb, modified by myself, the one pictured above.

3) Generation Bb, modified by Jerry Freeman.

Numbers 1 and 2 have nearly identical alignments, with just a silver of light below the ramp showing.

Number 3 has no light showing below the ramp. If you change your viewpoint from looking perfectly straight down the windway to looking slightly down the windway then you can see the tiniest sliver of light.

[Terry McGee]

Number 3 has no light showing below the ramp. If you change your viewpoint from looking perfectly straight down the windway to looking slightly down the windway then you can see the tiniest sliver of light.

Yeah, that would be a good description of my tweaked Feadog. The inside of the credit card is white, and when you look down the windway and see the band of white, it's easy to think you are seeing sky. So I took a marker pen and painted the leading edge of the card black. Now look down the windway and you can only just see a sliver of sky if you tilt the windway to look "diagonally down" it.

So, technically, we should perhaps refer to that as:
windway exit bottom a smidge above the ramp floor (thinnest sliver of sky if viewed "diagonally down") - optimum tone, power and stability?

Seems unlikely we wonder, given the recurring meme about the edge "splitting" the air stream? Surely splitting the air stream suggests:
windway exit centred on ramp floor (half sky)
but we know that leads to chaotic behaviour, harsh tone, don't we?

Now consider the Irish flute. We don't aim the airstream at the far edge of the hole, "splitting the air stream". We aim it down the hole, so it misses the far edge. And it reaps big benefits.

Translated to the whistle, that sounds like: windway exit above end of ramp (no sky) - no sound, air just escapes up the ramp? [untested!]
and it would be, if taken too far. But if taken just far enough: (windway exit bottom a smidge above the ramp floor (thinnest sliver of sky if viewed diagonally down)), is that the whistle's equivalent of the flute's offset jet? It's the flute's offset jet that is responsible for the flute's "hard, dark tone" that gives the powerful edgy low D. Are we reaping a bit of that same magic in the whistle by moving up the ramp a smidge, "offsetting the jet"? Hmmmmm... Certainly, my tweaked Feadog is not just rendered workable (which was my aim). It's rendered fun-to-play.

Now, a question, pancelticpiper. In your third example, the Generation Bb tweaked by Jerry Freeman, is there any sign of him having lowered the floor under the ramp? Does he appear to have used a credit card?

And if so, can you read any of the numbers? We could cash into the vast fortune he will have acquired from all these whistle tweakings.....

[bigsciota]

Thanks for all the replies, I'll take a look at the windway and see if there are any irregularities. Definitely no flashing, but hopefully I can figure out what is causing the unpleasant edge to the tone.

[Terry McGee]

Looking forward to hearing if it's a "too much sky" issue. I should mention that it's much easier to look down the windway to the sky if you take the head off the tube. Otherwise you are reliant on being able to tell the difference between the low end of the ramp and the reflected light coming up the tube. But in bad cases (such as many I have here) even with the tube on you can tell you're seeing too much light and not enough ramp. We want just a sliver of sky, and only then if we tilt the head to look for it. A bold rectangle of light is far too much.

[Terry McGee]

Now turning the mind to the opposite question, how far up the ramp should we be aiming for, I tried fooling around with a long thin sewing needle poked up the windway. It's not a really great test, as needles are tapered, and windways are tapered, and are of differing lengths, heights and profiles, but it's a start. My needle is about 48mm long and 0.8mm maximum thickness.

The tests are:

• will the tip of the needle pass under the ramp if you tilt the end you are holding up and the pointy end down, and

• how far up the ramp will the tip of the needle go if you tilt the end you are holding down and the pointy end up?

On the Credit Card Enhanced Feadog, the needle cannot pass under the ramp (the front of the credit card blocks it). Tilted up, it easily makes it up onto the top of the protruding credit card, and stops a bit up the old ramp.

On a Waltons which plays badly and displays a large chunk of sky, the needle passes easily under the tip of the ramp. You don't even have to concentrate on tipping down, under is its default path. Tilted up, it stops where the main ramp gives way to a more blunt slope at the tip. That's hardly any distance up the ramp, say 0.5mm or less, and you have to concentrate on getting it there.

Going over to my clutch of good-playing whistles, some bought, some of my own making, none of them admitted the needle under the ramp - they stopped at the tip if tilted down. And all of them let the needle run 1 to 2mm up the ramp when tilted upwards.

So, if you find a needle that works like that on a known good whistle, try the same test on a dodgy whistle and see if can tell the difference.

[Moof]

On the Credit Card Enhanced Feadog

Can I ask a question about the CCEF, please?

Is there a reason the strip of credit card has to be fitted underneath the existing ramp? If the new edge is going to split the air column at a higher point and further back inside the window, couldn't it just go on top?

If you've done this sort of thing before it might be obvious why this is a stupid idea, but my only experience of tweaking a whistle is sticking lumps of Blu-Tack at strategic points on the tone body so my arthritic hands can keep hold of it.

But if it could go on top, it'd be a lot easier to do.

[Tunborough]

Is there a reason the strip of credit card has to be fitted underneath the existing ramp? If the new edge is going to split the air column at a higher point and further back inside the window, couldn't it just go on top?

If you've done this sort of thing before it might be obvious why this is a stupid idea, but my only experience of tweaking a whistle is sticking lumps of Blu-Tack at strategic points on the tone body so my arthritic hands can keep hold of it.

But if it could go on top, it'd be a lot easier to do.

A major objective is reducing the amount of daylight between the floor of the windway and the bottom side of the blade. We either have to move the windway up (very difficult) or extend the blade down.

Putting the shim on the top side of the blade would serve to move the leading edge of the blade closer to the windway - the other major objective - but wouldn't lower the bottom face. We could extend the shim below the existing underside of the blade; that would reduce the amount of daylight, but I think it would introduce unwanted turbulence behind the new leading edge. You could try it, I suppose.

[Moof]

A major objective is reducing the amount of daylight between the floor of the windway and the bottom side of the blade.

Ah, I hadn't fully appreciated that – thank you.

You could try it, I suppose.

Well, it's easily done and potentially reversible, I suppose, so I might try it with the one whistle I have that plays absurdly flat in the upper octave when the lower is in tune.

It's an old Soodlums or Waltons that belonged to a chap my friend dated years ago. We found it when clearing her attic, and since the owner's now deceased, she was going to bin it. The amount of wear around the holes attracted my attention – it looks like a well-loved and well-played old friend – so I hung onto it. The tone is clear and strong (the bore's a good bit wider than my other high Ds), and it would sound great if it were feasible to blow the upper octave into tune without knocking lumps of plaster off the ceiling. It's the ideal candidate for a bit of inexpert experimentation.

[Terry McGee]

Now, is this your old Soodlums/Waltons that plays flat in the second octave?



(Ignore the two black buttons, I added them when I was getting a bit of hand trouble, which seems fortunately to have passed.)

If so, you might find this article interesting: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Tin-whistle-retuning.htm

[Terry McGee]

Now, new experiment. I have here two fairly recent-looking and identical Waltons D whistles - the thin ones, not the Mellow D. Still in original packaging, picked up recently for $5 each in our local OpShop. Neither sounds well - both overly bright and dirty. Looking up at the sky shows a bold band of light in both. But probably not as bold as the Feadog I recently operated on. Gulp, would my credit card be too thick? Should I look for something else? Ah, at $5, who cares?

So, I picked one of them, and cut up the tiny piece of credit card I'd need to sit on the platform below the ramp. It was very tiny, even though I'd left around 2mm more in length to stick out into the window space. And I used the forceps, rubber band and poster putty approach I'd wondered about above for getting it into place. That worked really well, so worth a go if you plan to do any of this. Spot of superglue, pop it into place, clamp the forceps with the rubber band, and set aside half an hour to cure.

I should mention I'm using Tarzan's Grip Shockproof Superglue. I've found it very good for lots of things. It doesn't set instantly, which can be good or bad, depending on your application!

Half an hour later, plug the whistle tube back in and test. (Remember we have ~2mm of blunt card sticking out into the window!) In the record below, the number is how many mm back from the window exit the new edge is. Blunt means I cut it off vertically, Sharp means I've sharpened it to resemble the ramp. Undercut means I'm undercutting the front of the card, effectively raising the edge. I wondered if this might be a partial solution if the card sticks down too far. And along the way, we might find out what the downsides of a too low ramp floor might be.

4.35mm
Blunt - hardly speaks
Sharp - ditto

4.89mm
Blunt - playable, very quiet
Sharp - better but very quiet

5.22mm
Blunt - still rather quiet
Sharp - similar

5.39mm
Blunt - better, quiet, clean
Sharp - similar

5.51mm
Undercut - better

5.81mm
Blunt - card now invisible under ramp - better again

5.84mm
Undercut - better again, good enough!

Interesting now to compare the two whistles. The untreated one sounds really bad by comparison. A bit louder, but brash and dirty. The treated one sounds like a tin whistle.

And looking at the sky, still the bold band of light in the untreated one, and just the faintest awareness of light on the treated one. Not real light perhaps, but the promise of it!

I still wonder if I should have toughed it out, and kept sharpening from the top, rather than undercutting. It would have meant slicing away some of the old ramp. Hmmm, perhaps another day....

[Moof]

Now, is this your old Soodlums/Waltons that plays flat in the second octave?

Pretty much!

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/76bi250m ... lrkp9&dl=0

The head on mine has the beginnings of a crack, so I taped it to make sure this wasn't what was causing the very flat upper octave (it wasn't).

But it plays more or less in tune if I do this:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/az3k1pw2 ... 76n4i&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/be9fzbg2 ... 9ai11&dl=0

...except the F#, which is around 20 cents flat with or without the modification. I only know because the tuner tells me, though, my pitch discrimination isn't good enough to hear it myself without a reference tone.

The brass strip doesn't work unless I put a spot of Blu-Tack under the bottom end to alter the angle of the ramp. It's prone to moving when it gets damp, so at some point I'll dig out some PVA medium and try and get the angle right before it hardens off.

[pancelticpiper]

But it plays more or less in tune except the F#, which is around 20 cents flat with or without the modification. I only know because the tuner tells me, though, my pitch discrimination isn't good enough to hear it myself without a reference tone.

If it's a D whistle then having an F# around 20 cents flat will sound right to most musicians, trad and classical alike, because an F# that's 14 cents flat is a perfect blend with D. It's how accapela choirs and brass ensembles and string ensembles and bagpipers play their Major 3rds.

[Moof]

If it's a D whistle then having an F# around 20 cents flat will sound right to most musicians, trad and classical alike, because an F# that's 14 cents flat is a perfect blend with D. It's how accapela choirs and brass ensembles and string ensembles and bagpipers play their Major 3rds.

That's interesting to know, thank you. It does sound fine to me, but as I have hearing loss and no musical training at all, I'd never be inclined to rely on my own judgement. Even the flattened upper octave sounded okay until I got to the A (which sounded to me as if I wasn't blowing it right) and the B (definitely off, and what prompted me to find the tuner).

Now, is this your old Soodlums/Waltons that plays flat in the second octave?

If so, you might find this article interesting: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Tin-whistle-retuning.htm

I think the tuning is about as far off on mine as it was on yours! But I quite like the back pressure on it, and as you say, it does have a nice strong tone.

[Terry McGee]

Yes, I was attracted to its bold tone, but cheesed off by the flat upper-tube notes. Especially the 2nd octave B, which was 3/4 of the way down to Bb! Opening up all but one of the holes pretty much solved the tuning issue, but also changed the flavour of the instrument. Rather than a "Mellow D", it was now a "Party Girl D", as bright as Barbie, but tending a little shrill on the top notes!

We've identified a lot of issues with the old Generations and Clarkes, and the earlier Irish-brand whistles like Feadogs and Waltons. But we've also identified a number of pretty simple improvements that surely the companies should have come up with. Ideally before releasing the whistles in question. Mr Gumby has made the case for a bit of sympathy on the grounds of variability in mass-produced plastic castings. And some of the problems possibly relate to shrinkage later. But the tuning of the Mellow D relates to holes in brass. No excuses there!

[Terry McGee]

So, have I harried this pair of op-shop Walton's D whistles enough to offset the enormous capital investment of AUD $5.00 each? Nah! They are still "assisting authorities with their investigations..."

You'll remember from our last exciting episode that neither played acceptably (dirty/harsh is a good description) as they came out of the box. I tweaked one with a chunk of credit card, but was a bit concerned (concerned might be too strong a word for $5.00!) that the card appeared a bit thicker than needed. Looking down the windway without the tube attached, even tilting the front up, I couldn't really see a sliver of light under the ramp, just the faint promise of one. It would be interesting to try something a smidge thinner.

Then the notion occurred to me, surely we should be able to try before we buy? Can we come up with a temporary tweak, to allow us to test the notion before committing? Worried about committing $5.00? By now, you might realise you are in the company of a total tightwad!

So, casting around the dark recesses of the workshop (and there are many), I found some nice brass sheet, around 0.5mm thick (the credit card was about 0.75mm). So I cut up a piece to the dimensions needed, around 8mm wide x 5.5mm long, then stuck it to some double-sided tape. Now this isn't the big bold double-sided tape used to hold down carpets, or hold up mirrors. This is really thin stuff from Sellotape, available in our local hardware outlet. Once the backing sheet is off, it's hardly more than a smear on the surface to which it has been applied. But it's good and sticky. I trimmed off the excess tape, removed its backing sheet, then offered the shim up the socket of the whistle, sticky side up. I balanced it on the open jaws of some tweezers, but you could use anything that would fit. Once the front of the shim was visible in the windway, I guided it into place and pressed upwards. It stuck out into the windway a smidge on one side, but I was able to edge it into better location, before again pressing it upwards from inside to help it stick.

I did feel that it wasn't sitting entirely flat, possibly the width was a little too much for the little platform it had to adhere to. (This was a quick'n'dirty investigation!) I concentrated on making sure it was sticking well along the front edge, under the tip of the ramp, which seems to me to be more important than sticking well at the base of the socket.

And it didn't bother me that I hadn't "sharpened" the leading edge - that would be a job to do once the shim was firmly adhered into place with glue rather than with temporary tape.

Looking down the windway now, I could see the sliver of light I had been aiming for. And playing the whistle, it now sounded like a whistle, without all the harsh and dirty artifacts it had previously. It did sound a little quieter than its Credit Card Corrected sibling, but that's OK too at this point. The real test would come if I glued it in permanently and cleaned up the ramp. The important thing to note is that it now plays well - it's worth persevering with and we're not going to make it worse.

I think though at this stage, all I had wanted to achieve has been achieved. Yes, it is possible to try out a temporary tweak to make sure you are heading in the right direction before committing! The whistle is probably of more use to me untweaked, as I can try out other experiments like this one.

So the mind now turns to what other useful shim material does one have lying around the house? For example, our local plastic milk bottles are a good source of 0.4mm shim, approximately half a credit card in thickness.

[Voice off, agitated] "Hey, why is this milk leaking?"