Chiff and Fipple Forums

I don't know if this has been posted here before, but interesting to see that at least one University is looking at the questions of 3D Printing, Modelling and Microtonal Music, in what they are calling flutes, but I think we'd call whistles. (Such a non-academic word though, isn't it!)

The University is Woolongong, about 2 hours drive north of me, on the way to Sydney. And here's a link to their introduction on the topics: https://www.uow.edu.au/global-challenge ... ed-flutes/

Some four or five years back, they contacted me and a couple of them came down for a chat to see if there was anything we had to offer each other. They looked at what I was doing, and I looked at what they were doing, and we both concluded probably not at that time. I haven't kept up with them, but their contact details are there if anyone wants to.

Very cool. I wonder if they hand-voice the blades + chamfers.

I think they said they had to do a fair bit of cleanup after printing. But still a lot easier than excavating out of solid Delrin!

Now what was I saying (elsewhere) about a PhD Physics (Whistle)? And it's just 2 hours drive away! Whether they would let me go Equal Temperament might be the question!

Terry McGee wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:14 am I think they said they had to do a fair bit of cleanup after printing. But still a lot easier than excavating out of solid Delrin! . . .

Thanks for explaining. I gave the article only a quck-scan.

One of my favorite Low-D voices has obvious signs of CNC production, but with hand-voicing.

Terry McGee wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:14 am . . . Whether they would let me go Equal Temperament might be the question!

Just do it !

It would be interesting to know what approach they are taking to the modelling. And whether they've got any further than when I met them. And whether they have set up mechanised test blowing or are relying on human feedback. We may have reasons to contact them again.

The hype is a bit thick ...

3D printed flutes set to revolutionise music industry, UOW Newsroom, June 6, 2015
3D-printed flutes can produce notes that regular flutes can't, Gizmodo, June 18, 2015 and Gizmodo UK, June 20, 2015

I had a quick look at the one published paper, https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.c ... =lhapapers. They give a nod to more modern modelling methods like the Transmission Matrix Model (TMM), but it appears they use a tonehole model dating back to 1995 and earlier. "Adapting the TMM method to the design of 3D printed microtonal flutes and validation with measured data is the subject of future work." They identify the model of microphone and pre-amp they used to measure frequencies, and quote measured frequency down to the nearest Hz, but don't say anything about who or what was blowing their recorder.

Google Scholar didn't dig up any follow-on work.

I'm just beginning to read that article. It states early on that the 3D printing version typically arrives with a rougher internal surface than a commercial flute, and that is affecting playability. As a life-long player of the common silver C-flute, I know from much experience that the instrument becomes somewhat inhibited and the response starts being diminished when any accumulation of dirt or dried spit/sweat or humidity (or oatmeal muffin residue) settles on the interior surface (and certainly the pads too, but that's a different topic). Once the interior surface is cleansed with an adequate cloth and appropriate fast-acting moistener, the improvement in performance can be substantial. Certainly the clarity of notes at the extreme high and low of the instrument range are affected, and tone and response with reduced windiness, become "as new" again.

If there is a maker of 3D flutes or whistles, they'll therefore need a way to physically go back on each newly printed instrument to smooth the interior surface and leave it with the ideal bore dimension.

Every player of a whistle or flute, especially if you play the instrument more than a few times before it breaks, is put in storage or sold, needs to have it's interior surface carefully cleansed regularly, or you have it in a lesser version of it's true performance abilities.

Tunborough wrote: ↑Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:04 am The hype is a bit thick ...

3D printed flutes set to revolutionise music industry, UOW Newsroom, June 6, 2015
3D-printed flutes can produce notes that regular flutes can't, Gizmodo, June 18, 2015 and Gizmodo UK, June 20, 2015

I had a quick look at the one published paper, https://ro.uow.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.c ... =lhapapers. They give a nod to more modern modelling methods like the Transmission Matrix Model (TMM), but it appears they use a tonehole model dating back to 1995 and earlier. "Adapting the TMM method to the design of 3D printed microtonal flutes and validation with measured data is the subject of future work." They identify the model of microphone and pre-amp they used to measure frequencies, and quote measured frequency down to the nearest Hz, but don't say anything about who or what was blowing their recorder.

Google Scholar didn't dig up any follow-on work.

Yeah, I agree about the hype. I think it was probably aimed at getting funding - the Government at that time being attracted to anything claiming to benefit industry. They even went on later to make humanities courses dearer than science and engineering, and to deny funding to research programs that didn't align with their ideologies. Fortunately we've had a change of government since then, and things are heading the right way for a change.

I'm not sure that microtonal music has the following necessary to guarantee industrial success. But I can't imagine a research program to develop the world's best tin whistle would gain research funding either! We'll just have to do it ourselves....

Hi
I was perusing the forum and saw this thread. Thought this may be of interest.

I had a go at printing an irish style flute
i started off with an stl file I found on line but have since redesigned the whole thing.

FDM printed in normal plastic PLA (metallic effect PLA)
no finishing (deliberately) except removing supports. so holes and embouchure are very rough

it dosent have the responsiveness nor the volume or tonal range or dynamics of a good wooden flute
but it sounds pretty damn good. as least as good if not better than most of the "practice" flutes I have (some which cost up to $£300)
I wouldn't have an issue playing it at a session

I am just now printing a slightly tweaked "tuning barrel" (it takes forever to print this stuff)
once done I will post some sound files so you can hear the thing.

Right

sound file google drive link below

note that its recorded straight into a very battered old phone

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LYD9kN ... sp=sharing

i just realised this is the whistle section so ill get off now.

Thanks, PaulJF, very impressive. Do you have plans to push further with this approach?

Hey cheers Terry.

well i was thinking about printing it in sparkly red!

In seriousness though my bland response to your question will be, I don't know, haven't really thought about it.

Just off the bat maybe some of the things I would like to improve.

- Restricted tonal range.
It is easy to play and it sounds nice but there is not much tonal range to be gotten outside this "nice" sound.
in that respect it is more like a whistle, but the point of playing flute over a whistle IMO is the dynamic range of tonal color and volume that can be achieved with a flute
So maybe I could mess around with embouchure hole shape to remedy this but I have already gone through about 40 embouchure hole iterations to get to the current one.
Not sure I have the patience to do any more.

- Some of the holes are a bit big and hard to hit/cover
so there is that, maybe mess around with multiple bore tapers to allow smaller holes closer together.

-Could look at printing in other formats,
resin, or some laser sintering nylon or titanium, this would give better accuracy, smoother surfaces and better airtightness over FDM PLM printing. (but expensive)

- One of the cool things about 3D printing is the ability to print joints in place.
So maybe printing some keys in place that could be very cool.

- Maybe some different scales/tunings

So yea I may try some of this stuff. its mainly about finding the time and the inclination.

I am open to any other ideas.

That sounds great!

A neighbor with a 3d printer printed me a whistle once, with PLA filament. It was less than impressive, very rough and it broke very easily. But it was certainly playable and sounded like a whistle and was acceptably in tune

We live in exciting times, PB+J. Sure there are limitations to this technology at the moment, but who knows where it will lead.

Ahh it looks like my posts are being delayed or reviewed maybe because I am new. I did reply to you Terry , see above.
Anyway after playing the thing for a good few hours now I am actually really quite enamoured with it.
Also Ive just realised (after starting to print a red sparkly one), that the truly novel thing about 3D printing flutes in PLA is ... all the color possibilities!
i will print another few as i want to get a couple into the hands of some decent flute players over the next few weeks to see if I am not deluding myself that they are half decent.
i may start another thread with the results.