Wood whistles
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:14 pm
Pros and cons of wood whistles? Looking at High D Penny Whistles. Thanks
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=113203
Could you please provide explicit references to one or two of those studies. If nothing else, viscous and thermal losses at the surface of a bore might be expected to be material dependent to an audible extent. Thanks!Cyberknight wrote: ↑ Time and again, scientific studies and blind tests have demonstrated that material makes absolutely no intrinsic difference to sound when it comes to woodwind instruments like flute/recorder/whistle (and there's no scientific reason why it would).
Are we really going back to the old concrete flute argument?Material simply does not matter for tone. Manufacturing/shape is what matters.
Not sure what you mean by viscous and thermal losses. But it IS true that metal instruments can take a longer time to sharpen up their pitch. That IS a legit difference in the materials that has been scientifically documented. But that has to do with pitch, not with tonal quality.stringbed wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:56 amCould you please provide explicit references to one or two of those studies. If nothing else, viscous and thermal losses at the surface of a bore might be expected to be material dependent to an audible extent. Thanks!Cyberknight wrote: ↑ Time and again, scientific studies and blind tests have demonstrated that material makes absolutely no intrinsic difference to sound when it comes to woodwind instruments like flute/recorder/whistle (and there's no scientific reason why it would).
Cyberknight wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 12:58 pmNot sure what you mean by viscous and thermal losses. But it IS true that metal instruments can take a longer time to sharpen up their pitch. That IS a legit difference in the materials that has been scientifically documented. But that has to do with pitch, not with tonal quality.stringbed wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 8:56 amCould you please provide explicit references to one or two of those studies. If nothing else, viscous and thermal losses at the surface of a bore might be expected to be material dependent to an audible extent. Thanks!Cyberknight wrote: ↑ Time and again, scientific studies and blind tests have demonstrated that material makes absolutely no intrinsic difference to sound when it comes to woodwind instruments like flute/recorder/whistle (and there's no scientific reason why it would).
As for the studies, here are a few (and also an article explaining why it makes no logical difference what material you use):
https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Coltman ... n-1.06.pdf
http://bulldog2.redlands.edu/fac/julie_ ... s/brad.pdf
https://pubs.aip.org/asa/jasa/article/3 ... State-Tone
https://bretpimentel.com/does-material- ... -to-agree/
The studies on this topic focus mainly on the flute. As far as I know, there's never been a study on this specific to whistles. The logic, however, applies to whistles. Material fundamentally *shouldn't* affect the sound of woodwinds, because vibrations of the instrument's body are not what's creating the sound. The sound is formed solely by the movement of air, so the shape is all that ultimately matters.
That's very possible, although one would think that an extremely well-made wooden instrument would have few enough imperfections that the texture wouldn't affect the sound an audible way when compared to a well-made plastic instrument. Maybe it would, though.Sirchronique wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 2:44 pm I agree, with the caveat that certain materials do sometimes have a bearing on the dimensions used, as well as surface texture of various components of the whistle, both of which do affect the column of air within. So, while I believe there is no such thing as a clearly defined “brass sound”, “plastic sound”, or “wood sound”, I think there are certainly certain qualities that are far more likely to coincide with the usage of certain materials.
That's fair. But I'm curious: Why does density make any difference to the sound (I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just curious because I don't know a lot about flute-making)?Terry McGee wrote: ↑Mon May 01, 2023 6:35 pm As a long-time flute maker, I was never happy with the studies that claim materials make no difference. So I did a reductio-ad-absurdum experiment making a Prattens keyless from our local plantation timber, pinus radiata. It was predictably awful! No surprises when we remember its density is around 0.4 whereas boxwood is about 1, blackwood around 1.2 and Delrin around 1.4gms/cm3. Brass comes in around 8.4 and Silver at 10.5gms/cm3.
My interpretation is that materials won't make much difference providing they make an adequate container for the vibrating air column. IE, smooth, airtight and strong. I'd describe boxwood as marginally dense enough, and the others fine. Pinus Radiata doesn't come near!
The article about the Pine Flute is at: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/pine_prattens.htm