Question on Burke whistles

[medit8b1]

I am looking to buy a G whistle, and am considering a Burke. But the last Burke I bought (a brass Bb) did not have a functional in tune cross fingering for the flat seventh note. Now I did own a low d viper awhile back and that did have a working cross fingering. I did ask Michael directly and he said he did not make his whistles to work with cross or "fork" fingering as he felt that it did not produce clear tones. Hence why he makes whistles with thumb holes. Now I respect that, but I don't want to learn how to play a whistle with a thumb hole, and while I can half hole, it is not my preferred method of playing. So, long story short, does anyone here own a burke G whistle? And if so does it have it have a workable cross fingering for the flat seventh? Michael did also say that he thought his aluminum whistles were more likely to work with cross fingering than his brass ones. Thanks!

[Feadoggie]

does anyone here own a burke G whistle?

Yes, I have an aluminum Burke low G. It happens to be one of my most played whistles and a personal favorite. Mine is an early black-tipped model. It is pretty sweet sounding. I have not had any reason to replace it with a newer model.

And if so does it have it have a workable cross fingering for the flat seventh?

I have never had any issues with the tuning on Mike's whistles, certainly not since the black-tip redesign.. I like his tuning better than that of some other makers. I do half-hole the dominant seventh as much as I can. But I also use cross fingerings when they are convenient to the context of the tune. I use OXX OOO and OXX XOX most frequently when going across octaves. Both are clear enough and tuned well enough to be musical. They are just fine IMO. Nothing too weak or stuffy about them. Burkes holes sizes are plenty large enough to do what they have to do well. YMMV.

Keep a few things in mind here which might useful to you in interpreting my opinion of Burke's tuning.

First, my low G whistle is an older Burke whistle. Mike has improved his physical design a bit since mine was made. He has also changed his voicing a bit to favor the bottom end even more.

Second, I own and play a couple dozen Burke whistles in lots of keys, high E down to low C, and the various materials regularly. My playing is well adapted to the Burke deigns. But I really do not think that I am doing anything in particular to accomodate a flatted-seventh tuning. They are very good whistles IMO. They all play so much alike that I do not think a bit about what key I am using when I pick one Burke or another up to play.

I do also play a lot of whistles from other makers. And I make my own whistles too. But the Burkes are what I grab first when I get a call to come play for a project. And I will be honest about this. I do not think about tuning when I use them. And I have never received a raised eyebrow or a question on their tuning either.

Hope that helps some.

Feadoggie

[pancelticpiper]

Your statements are puzzling to me because I own/have owned Burkes in several keys (Low D, Low Eb, F, G, A, C, and D) and all have their scales tuned the same way, with a crossfingered flat 7th that's pretty much in tune using oxx ooo or oxx oox.

Only one of the whistles, the Low Eb, has a thumbhole, and its flat 7th seems to be tuned the same way as the ones without thumbholes.

I have my mezzo G right here, marked 07/2007. It's a fine whistle.

I will say that the Burkes in general have flat 7th I tad higher than I would like it, around 5 cents sharp when blown at the same strength as Middle D. I just blow the crossfingered flat 7th a bit softer.

Also Burkes tend to have a certain tuning oddity: a separation in pitch between low B and high B (or equivalent note for the particular key of whistle). So just now I checked my Burke G and the "B" in the low octave is rather flat and the same note in the upper octave is rather sharp! My Low D and High D Burkes are similar, but without checking I don't know if all my Burkes are like that. (By "B" I mean the one-finger note xoo ooo.)

Curiously Concert Pitch D uilleann chanters usually have this same issue, low B being a tad flat (or correct for Just Intonation if you please) while high B is as much as a quartertone sharp.

[Feadoggie]

Your statements are puzzling to me

Whose statements, Richard?

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

I wouldn't buy (another) Burke low G as the sound is very bland IMO, after selling the Burke i got a Overton Goldie that i liked much better, it had a bit too much back pressure for my taste though so i replaced it with a Löfgren. Haven't looked back (or elsewhere ) since.
Of course it's the usual horses for courses/YMMV that applies, but that's my €0,2 anyway.

[pancelticpiper]

the last Burke I bought (a brass Bb) did not have a functional in tune cross fingering for the flat seventh note

Michael said he did not make his whistles to work with cross or "fork" fingering

These are the puzzling statements.

Because all the Burkes I've had, ranging from Low D to High D and a number in between all have crossfingered flat 7th that work pretty much the same as other whistles: the flat 7th a tiny hair sharp using oxx ooo and the sharp 7th a bit flat using ooo ooo.

True that I've not owned a Burke Bb. But given the consistency of the other Burkes, it's puzzling that Michael would use a different tuning approach for that one key.

I have had a couple whistles and flutes over the years where that Hole 1 was made big and/or high in order to get the sharp 7th at full Equal Temperament pitch using normal blowing, on which the normal flat 7th crossfingerings would not work. Oddly, though most of the Susatos I've owned had normal size/positioning of Hole 1, the Susato Low C I owned had a big high Hole 1. To play that whistle normally I had to half-cover that hole with tape; otherwise it was a great-playing whistle, the best Susato of all in my opinion. I also had an early Casey Burns flute like that. I sent it right back to Casey and had him move Hole 1 to its normal traditional position. AFAIK Casey didn't make any more flutes like that.

[medit8b1]

Thanks all for the feedback, I think I will try an aluminum G Burke, as Michael says below, I can always return it if I don't like it. Maybe the Bb I had didn't cross finger cause it was brass? Who knows. Anyway, below is michaels response to my inquiry, from the horses mouth as it were.

Hi Kevin,
Fork fingerings are not really suitable for whistles in general for a number of reasons, but the ones that come closest to "working" will have thick walled bores. That means that your best bet is an aluminum whistle over a brass one. My aluminum low G might work for you.
The thing is that the cross fingering requires that the top hole have a low cutoff frequency and that means that it depends heavily on the next holes below to radiate the higher overtones that dictate tonal color and therefore the interest and beauty in the tone produced. Covering those toneholes strangles the flattened 7th produced, therefore producing a dead sounding note, relative to those around it.
There are really only two decent solutions to this.
1. Half-holing, which is used by a lot of good Irish players, I am told
2. A thumb hole placed behind beyween the top two toneholes.

Half holing works well, but one needs a good ear, like a fiddle player, who has no frets to guide him.

The best solution is the thumbhole, but it requires some new learning. Musicians that take the time to learn to play with the thumb hole often return their collection to add them to all their whistles. It is by far the best solution and the flattened sevenths also overblow true to the octave.

In any case, if you wish to try one of my low Gs, the aluminum is likely to satisfy your requirements and if not, you can return it as long as it is within 30 days and it is ni like new condition.

All the best
Mike

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Hello, I am interested in ordering one of you whistles in the key of G. Before I do, I was hoping you could tell me if the whistle had an in tune cross fingering for the F natural note (or what is normally the C natural on a D whistle) In my previous experience I know your low D viper did but a Bb I tried did not. Thank you! Kevin
Burke Whistles
http://www.burkewhistles.com/

[Feadoggie]

Richard, thanks for the clarification.

True that I've not owned a Burke Bb. But given the consistency of the other Burkes, it's puzzling that Michael would use a different tuning approach for that one key.

And you are right. I have two Bb Burkes, one in aluminum and one in brass, and they are tuned the same way the rest of the Burkes are tuned. The brass whistle wants to be warmed a bit more than the aluminum - no big deal in practice.

Medit8b1, I know that Mike likes the extra hole for the flat seventh. I presently have three of his whistles with the extra hole. I tried using it for a while several years back and could see no compelling reason to use it. So I just don't use that hole. I keep it taped over. The half-holed and forked fingerings work just fine for me - and they can be played like a normal whistle.

Feadoggie

[chas]

the last Burke I bought (a brass Bb) did not have a functional in tune cross fingering for the flat seventh note

Michael said he did not make his whistles to work with cross or "fork" fingering

These are the puzzling statements.

Because all the Burkes I've had, ranging from Low D to High D and a number in between all have crossfingered flat 7th that work pretty much the same as other whistles: the flat 7th a tiny hair sharp using oxx ooo and the sharp 7th a bit flat using ooo ooo.

I've also owned quite a few Burkes, and MOST have had in-tune Cnats fingered OXX OOO. However, I had a narrow-bore D that required OXX XXO. It could be that this Bflat has a relatively narrow bore.

[medit8b1]

So, I got a Burke aluminum low G, and the F natural is indeed audibly sharp, even with the OXXXOO fingering. Which is a shame as other wise this is a phenomenal sounding and playing whistle. I'm going to hang on to it for now, cause even with the issue it's still way better tuned then the chieftain G I tried. The only other option I would entertain at this point would be an Abell G, and it will be awhile before I have that kinda money. I'm sure a Goldie would be in tune, but they clog to much for my taste. If only MK made a low G, sigh.

[MTGuru]

I'm sure a Goldie would be in tune, but they clog to much for my taste.

Don't know if you're aware that the Goldie clogging problem has been pretty definitively solved:

viewtopic.php?p=1103877#p1103877

Read the whole thread for the full story.

[an seanduine]

Just a thought. The one ingredient nearly ubiquitous in toothpaste is glycerine. Maybe this is the 'magic bullet' in this tweak?

Bob

[MTGuru]

Just a thought. The one ingredient nearly ubiquitous in toothpaste is glycerine. Maybe this is the 'magic bullet' in this tweak?

I honestly don't think so: viewtopic.php?p=1104026#p1104026

It's primarily the polishing effect of toothpaste at work, smoothing the surface and removing nucleation particles of Al₂O₃ - which is extremely hard and persistent (corundum is 9.0 on the Mohs scale, and used for sandpaper). Toothpaste contains mild abrasives, such as diatomaceous earth (calcium carbonate). And toothpaste is demonstrably effective as a metal polish; you can also use it to polish the outside of your whistle.

The effect of the surfactant (often sodium lauryl sulfate = Duponol) in toothpaste is probably real but small.

Any very mild abrasive would probably do, but toothpaste is handy.

[medit8b1]

Damn! And to think I just sold a Goldie Eb cause I was sick of it clogging! Crap.