Grey Larsen on ornamentation... Really?

pop · Post by **pop** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:18 pm

Absolutely endorse what what you say cynth.Some cracking posts on this thread,and another point is it me or is the chiff forums a nicer place to be at the moment

.I have a shed full of daft questions and queries as a newby noob noob no nothing.Before i didnt want to ask but in the future im going to ask and not feel stupid,Ive got no one at home to share this obsession with they think ive lost the plot with this whistle thing.It might of been me but as a novice you couldnt help but feel defensive.Im sure other newbs probably felt the same your going to ask daft questions get things wrong,its the same with trying to learn anything its the nature of the beast isn't it.In this current enviroment and"vibe" i think everyone gains. my opinion on americans has even changed

peace n love ppl you cant beat it.

edit...the american thing is a joke it has been from day one you knew that anyway right .

course you did nobodys that stupid not even americans

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:59 pm

Good discussion.

Bloomfield, you have a strong argument in your observations about Larsen's book; I definitely see and admit to your points, and I happen to like the book, myself. I do think that it's better suited for those who have been playing a while already and have no trepidation about experimenting with which fingers one could use for what and why they may or may not work best for one while in pursuit of more compression and complexity in one's ornamental execution. The goal of greater finger facility aside, though, even the purest, fastest "blips" carry a subliminal tonal quality, and this is worth weighing, IMHO. This may have been intentionally implicit in Larsen's not having been more specific about it, but I admit of course that it's just a guess even if the idea applies at all.

As for "steeping", giving myself a good marinating in some Jameson's works for me.

straycat82 · Post by **straycat82** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:08 pm

Nanohedron wrote:Good discussion.

Bloomfield, you have a strong argument in your observations about Larsen's book; I definitely see and admit to your points, and I happen to like the book, myself. I do think that it's better suited for those who have been playing a while already and have no trepidation about experimenting with which fingers one could use for what and why they may or may not work best for one while in pursuit of more compression and complexity in one's ornamental execution. The goal of greater finger facility aside, though, even the purest, fastest "blips" carry a subliminal tonal quality, and this is worth weighing, IMHO. This may have been intentionally implicit in Larsen's not having been more specific about it, but I admit of course that it's just a guess even if the idea applies at all.

As for "steeping", giving myself a good marinating in some Jameson's works for me.

I think you've summed it up pretty good and, if I'm not mistaken, I believe Larsen himself mentioned that the book was more of an intermediate tutor than a beginner tutor... which may be why he went into such ridiculous detail at times? Maybe not, I don't know.
Also, I do know that a cut is "an inaudible blip..." etc. but I also still hold strong to my original opinion that certain "inaudible blips" sound harsher than others; using an A or B cut on an F note for example, if you use the G cut, being one hole higher than the F (which I do sometimes as well) then you get, I think, a softer blip than with a B cut. Personally, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other how different people may play it, there are many different techniques that are all equally effective but when I'm playing I feel that cuts, taps, etc. can make a difference in the feel of the tune depending on which ones you use. I wouln't preach this technique as the one and only way, nor would I defend Larsen's teachings but I will say that this is what I like in my personal playing. I also just like to keep my mind open to trying different things and not getting too set on one technique or teaching.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:25 pm

"This is not as good as it gets; If you think you're done learning you've only stopped trying."

Straycat, I think your siggy sums it all up right there.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:11 pm

pop wrote:Absolutely endorse what what you say cynth.Some cracking posts on this thread,and another point is it me or is the chiff forums a nicer place to be at the moment .I have a shed full of daft questions and queries as a newby noob noob no nothing.Before i didnt want to ask but in the future im going to ask and not feel stupid,Ive got no one at home to share this obsession with they think ive lost the plot with this whistle thing.It might of been me but as a novice you couldnt help but feel defensive.Im sure other newbs probably felt the same your going to ask daft questions get things wrong,its the same with trying to learn anything its the nature of the beast isn't it.In this current enviroment and"vibe" i think everyone gains. my opinion on americans has even changed
peace n love ppl you cant beat it.

edit...the american thing is a joke it has been from day one you knew that anyway right . course you did nobodys that stupid not even americans

pop, I really think the forum is the same. Just my opinion. When a person is new, you can come just by coincidence when there is a problem and it will seem as though the whole place is barbarian city---not a completely wrong impression

but I think people do try to be nice. Then that bad impression does last for awhile. As you get to know people a bit more through their posts (and writing is very hard to interpret without hearing a tone of voice or seeing a face) you can tell better when they are joking or who just posts very short sentences all the time (which might seem unfriendly until you realize that they just always post short sentences) or maybe someone is usually nice and so they might be having a bad day, etc. And I'm sure there will be some upsets in the future and then things get okay again.

I know what you mean about being worried about asking questions. This was a problem (asking questions) I had as well and I've thought about it quite a bit. You should ask your questions. You should just make it clear that you are wanting to learn about something. Sometimes I think, because of this difficult communication by writing, there are misunderstandings. A person asking questions can sound like they are arguing for example---questions can just sometimes sound that way. So you do have to be careful to make sure people realize that you are earnestly asking questions, not arguing. I have seen this problem arise a number of times---neither person was in the wrong, it was just a misunderstanding. The forum is much more interesting when people ask questions. I think everyone would agree with that. It does take going out of one's way a bit to make sure people aren't misunderstanding what you are typing. But this is the only place I have that I can ask questions, and I have learned a tremendous amount. I mean, I'm still a beginner

but I've come a long way considering where I started.

And I saw that post about how you said you were going to emmigrate because we don't have The Eastenders, or whatever that show is!

I'll have a McDonald's hamburger waiting for you!

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:24 pm

Cynth wrote:As you get to know people a bit more through their posts (and writing is very hard to interpret without hearing a tone of voice or seeing a face) you can tell better when they are joking or who just posts very short sentences all the time (which might seem unfriendly until you realize that they just always post short sentences) or maybe someone is usually nice and so they might be having a bad day, etc.

short sentence. SHORT SENTNENCE!

You're lucky to get a full thought fragment.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:27 pm

Denny wrote:
Cynth wrote:As you get to know people a bit more through their posts (and writing is very hard to interpret without hearing a tone of voice or seeing a face) you can tell better when they are joking or who just posts very short sentences all the time (which might seem unfriendly until you realize that they just always post short sentences) or maybe someone is usually nice and so they might be having a bad day, etc.
short sentence. SHORT SENTNENCE!

You're lucky to get a full thought fragment.

You just thank your lucky stars you aren't inside my head, dude!

pop · Post by **pop** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:30 pm

I hear ya.

il pass on the mcdonalds though

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:10 pm

Cynth wrote:
Denny wrote:
Cynth wrote:As you get to know people a bit more through their posts (and writing is very hard to interpret without hearing a tone of voice or seeing a face) you can tell better when they are joking or who just posts very short sentences all the time (which might seem unfriendly until you realize that they just always post short sentences) or maybe someone is usually nice and so they might be having a bad day, etc.
short sentence. SHORT SENTNENCE!

You're lucky to get a full thought fragment.
You just thank your lucky stars you aren't inside my head, dude!

...and you yours!

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:28 pm

Denny wrote:
Cynth wrote:
Denny wrote: short sentence. SHORT SENTNENCE!

You're lucky to get a full thought fragment.
You just thank your lucky stars you aren't inside my head, dude!
...and you yours!

Denny, I must be somewhere. If I'm not inside my head, where am I?

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:25 pm

Cynth wrote:
Denny wrote:
Cynth wrote: You just thank your lucky stars you aren't inside my head, dude!
...and you yours!
Denny, I must be somewhere. If I'm not inside my head, where am I?

how about "...and you mine!"

1st foal of 2006 last night, sleep deprivation...I've been a bit off all day.

Cynth · Post by **Cynth** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:14 pm

Denny wrote:
Cynth wrote:
Denny wrote: ...and you yours!
Denny, I must be somewhere. If I'm not inside my head, where am I?

how about "...and you mine!"

1st foal of 2006 last night, sleep deprivation...I've been a bit off all day.

Oh

! It made perfect sense to me! Hope the little newborn is doing well.

Jennie · Post by **Jennie** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:31 am

You mind your mind, I'll mind mine.

Regarding which finger to cut with, and how the tonal difference affects the music, here's what I wonder:

Do (or did) any of the great traditional players ever actually analyze which finger to cut with? Or did they just learn from other players, or by "steeping," and end up with what works for them?

I mean, did any of them spend a whole bunch of time messing around with different cut fingerings? Or is it only when someone makes them stop and go over and over and over it again? I'm guessing that most of them didn't arrive there by puzzling it out the way we seem to be doing. They don't actually consider lots of different possibilities and then choose one for each place in a tune, do they? I can't imagine thinking that hard while I'm playing, or preparing that carefully for traditional music. Classical, yes, but not this.

Jennie

(Note: As you all probably know by now, I've found Grey's book helpful in filling the absolute void in my personal ITM experience: an available teacher or player to get close to. I can listen all I like, and still get somewhere a little quicker by having it patiently explained.)

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:41 am

There's two sides there: most old players will tell you they learned by example i.e. they heard the tunes and figured out how to play them, without any formal tuition. Sometimes, once playing an older player would mentor them by giving a few hints, again no formal tuition. There are many many stories liek Junior Crehans who stood behind the musicians at house dances trying to figure out their bowing patterns, hoping he'd be able to reproduce them later at home.

On the other hand there are players like Seamus Ennis, who spoke of 'the science of piping' and used his cuts very deliberately to achieve one effect or another, soemtimes cutting A with the B finger and later in the repeat with the C finger for a different effect.

In my experience though musicians may say 'ah just twiddle your finger' while they are very much aware what they are actually doing. I have been baffled many times by the amount of thought gone into deliberate details of tunes.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:45 am

Jennie wrote:Do (or did) any of the great traditional players ever actually analyze which finger to cut with? Or did they just learn from other players, or by "steeping," and end up with what works for them?

Who knows? Some may have analysed, others not. The thing is that it's a dimension available to one when building habits during practice. When it come to playing, just do it, and do your best.