Tonguing question

[Tucson Whistler]

Wow, I can't even imagine going through anything like that. Hearing stories like that makes me appreciate the things I take for granted. You are right that this thread has gone all over, but it's been fun see all the different responses. I am certainly one of the least informed about ITM on this board, so it's cool to be albe to get information form others who have been playing for a long time.

[wvtinwhistler]

i used to tongue A LOT, but recently i've tried to shy away from it for the most part. using other articulation (cuts, for instance), it sounds much better and creates a pleasing "Irish" sound for the casual listener.

[rh]

Quick question -- anybody here take a class with Brian Finnegan? Can you tell me how he does the triple-tonguing? T-T-T? T-D-T? Sounds to me like the former but it's insanely fast.


EDIT: nevermind, i found it.

[Whitmores75087]

Hi rh. I triple tongue occasionally. I use a sort of diddle-duh effect. It sounds terribly contrived and awkward to me as I do it. But, as you know, the sounds we make with our mouths are very different to others than they are to us, since we hear them reverberate through our heads (and others don't!). When I record this triple tongue method it sounds fine when I play it back.

[jemtheflute]

Dunno what Finnegan does (or much care) but this is all so much re-treading well known ground! (Including on the old thread linked to above.) Read Quantz! Don't try to "re-invent the wheel".

I would be doubtful that anyone, however practised, would do high speed triple tonguing (or equivalent "glottalling") by repeating the same tongue stroke (i.e. where the tongue strikes the teeth or palate to cut the air-flow). However fast one may train oneself to do it, doing alternating different strokes is easier to do faster anatomically/mechanically, hence all the variations explored by Baroque wind players and outlined by Quantz - which do have different effects in terms of percussiveness/fluidity etc. Any of t-k-t, d-g-d, t-dl-t, d-dl-d, t-dl-l, d-dl-l, t-r-t, d-r-d, etc, with whatever pseudo-vowel shapes/sounds you want to associate with them, work, with subtle differences in effect. The main feature of them all is that they start with a stronger, more forward contact point, followed by a more rearward (in the mouth) one, then on to a more forward one. This probably links to emphasising the on-beat as much as to ease of execution. It also develops out of the techniques for double tonguing, the previous stage in developing tongued articulation. In fact, in Baroque technique, extended runs of triple tonguing revert to a kind of double tonguing pattern in triplets, e.g. d-g-d, g-d-g, d-g-d, g-d-g ......

I do occasionally use triple tonguing, not a la Finnegan, but in tunes where it makes sense/is musically demanded, e.g. the pedal triplets in the B of Harvest Home or the same note triplets in The Trumpet Hornpipe (Captain Pugwash theme). I use something half-way between t-k-t and d-g-d.

I'd advise experimenting to find what comes easiest to the individual player and/or achieves the particular effect (degree of attack) required in context.

[rh]

Sean Ryan seems to do similar to you, jem, T-K-T; Finnegan does seem to articulate it differently -- sometimes on faster tunes it sounds like it might be similar to the Spanish "erre" exercise... erre cigarro, erre ferrocarril... maybe taking the word "terra" and spacing out the erre so it's more even.

Anyway, just wondering, not trying to get folks all riled up...

[colomon]

I would be doubtful that anyone, however practised, would do high speed triple tonguing (or equivalent "glottalling") by repeating the same tongue stroke (i.e. where the tongue strikes the teeth or palate to cut the air-flow).

I thought that was true by definition? If you're not using different "tongue strokes", then what you are doing is high speed single tonguing, no?

[jemtheflute]

Good point, Colomon.

[pancelticpiper]

The Spanish "rr" tongue-rolling, yes, I do that on rare occasion to imitate the uilleann pipe's stacatto triplet g-f#-e. I finger the notes and at the same time say "rr" and somehow the two things are in sync and it sounds like a perfectly clean stacatto triplet, like triple-tonguing would sound perhaps.
Like at the beginning of Langstern Pony:
gf#edC#AAEAAC#AA
I don't do this in normal playing because it sounds gimmicky. I just do it when I'm messing around.

[jemtheflute]

The rolled R technique is one I can do - it is usually called "flutter tonguing" and used on a sustained note or right through a passage of notes, but not usually in ITM - it would be appropriate in jazz or avant-garde classical contexts. One might use it as a very occassional special effect in ITM, I suppose, and I might admit to having tried it out! However, I've never tried to co-ordinate the rrrrrs with individual notes - I think the notes would hardly ever be as fast as the rrrrs. Not saying it's not possible though, just hadn't considered it before.

FWIW, I think one of the effects of open holes on flutes and whistles is that fast runs often sound quite staccato anyway when cleanly fingered, and don't need to be articulated as they would on a Boehm flute - merely lifting or placing the finger produces some attack on the individual note.

[Daleth]

The amount of tonguing I use depends on the tune, but for the most part I try to use it sparingly. While I'm impressed by the playing of some people who use tonguing constantly - like the oft-mentioned Brian Finnegan - it doesn't have a traditional sound to me. I like to listen to it on occasion, but it's certainly not a style I'd like to emulate.

One problem with Brian Finnegan is that, listening to his music, ALL he does is tonguing. I don't hear much in the way of other ornamentation (if you'll let me call tonguing ornamentation even though it's really not). The occasional roll, alright, but mostly, all tonguing. To me, that's like only ever learning taps, and using them to the point that you never use any cuts, rolls, or cranns. Using one kind of ornamentation almost exclusively makes a tune, to my ear, sound boring, and seems like closing a whole world off to yourself.

I don't mind the occasional tonguing; it can accentuate notes nicely, but when somebody like Brian does it constantly to where tonguing takes over the tune, it takes away a lot of the capability for variation and individual expression. It sounds neat, sure, but it's not the sort of playing I personally find enjoyable for any extended period of time.

As far as tonguing versus traditionalism goes, I really don't buy that, in the time between the whistle's incorporation into Irish music and the last 25 years, nobody has dared to tongue, and the use of tonguing has not been done by traditional players in Ireland. It's such a basic technique, it seems to me people HAVE to have been using it, although maybe not so much as many people use it these days.

Also, ITM is a living tradition. Invariably, some techniques and ways of playing are going to be added or changed. Obviously, we don't want it to happen too much, or we lose the heart of the tradition, but if we don't allow it at all, we don't have a living tradition, we have a dead tradition.