Whistle embouchure.

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Pyroh
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Post by Pyroh »

medit8b1 wrote:
jemtheflute wrote:What is "embrochure" and what has it to do with this thread? It sounds like it should be an obscure craft activity somwhere between embroidery and pulling wine corks. :D :evil:

More to the point, how can anyone who has attentively read any manual (let alone this and other threads on the topic) using the term persistently mis-spell it?
My humble apologies, oh great spelling police man. Thanks for the flame. I hope you feel like your a better person for pointing out someone elses mistakes in such a kind way. :devil:
Aren´t you taking yourself a bit too serious? :-) Unless it´s irony, of course...
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Post by lyrick »

medit8b1 wrote: I hope you feel like your a better person for pointing out someone elses mistakes in such a kind way. :devil:
BTW, you missed some punctuation marks in this sentence. It should be "I hope you feel like you're a better person for pointing out someone else's mistakes in such a kind way." :)

Seriously, when I kept seeing "embrochure" it almost brought me out of my habitual lurk mode. I kept thinking it was some kind of French version of a brochure: "Oui, I have delivered the embrochure to your desk, monsieur". Spell-check is our friend.

It's okay, I can spell but there are some things I'm lousy at that you've probably mastered. The problem with good spellers is that sometimes when we see a misspelled word it's like getting a stone in our shoe, it irritates us until we can get it out.
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medit8b1
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Post by medit8b1 »

Pyroh wrote:
medit8b1 wrote:
jemtheflute wrote:What is "embrochure" and what has it to do with this thread? It sounds like it should be an obscure craft activity somwhere between embroidery and pulling wine corks. :D :evil:

More to the point, how can anyone who has attentively read any manual (let alone this and other threads on the topic) using the term persistently mis-spell it?
My humble apologies, oh great spelling police man. Thanks for the flame. I hope you feel like your a better person for pointing out someone elses mistakes in such a kind way. :devil:
Aren´t you taking yourself a bit too serious? :-) Unless it´s irony, of course...
Yeah, you'RE probably right. I was angry at something else at the time I read this and it irked me because it seemed like he was calling walrii and I idiots. So I over reacted as usual and made myself look like...an idiot :party:
I now have the daunting task of combing my website to see how many french brochures I have in it. :tomato:
Last edited by medit8b1 on Fri May 23, 2008 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by squidgirl »

Spelling it is bad enough, but then one needs to know -- how does one pronounce "embouchure" anyway???
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Post by kennychaffin »

squidgirl wrote:Spelling it is bad enough, but then one needs to know -- how does one pronounce "embouchure" anyway???
See: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=embouchure

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Post by Jon-M »

If I were to go after all the mistakes in spelling, grammar and punctuation that I see on this board, there would be no end to it--and then people could go after the minutiae that they see in my responses. And I could go after them. And they could come back at me. And, and, and . . .
Surely we have better things over which to get bent out of shape (I'm working hard to avoid the grammar cops, but probably not succeeding) and over which to antagonize one another?
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Post by Thomas-Hastay »

Squidy! This is exactly why I prefer "Voicing Ornamentation" to "Embouchure" (I like American English terminology).

side note: The term "Fipple" is the nomenclature for the "Plug" in a Duct Flute, not the name of the Voicing/Embouchure. I don't understand why people insist on using this term. Maybe it's the same reason why people use G.Bush's term "Nucular"(Nook-you-lar) instead of the proper "Nuclear" (NEW-clee-ar).

Sorry! My Grandma was an english teacher!
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Denny
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Post by Denny »

squidgirl wrote:Spelling it is bad enough, but then one needs to know -- how does one pronounce "embouchure" anyway???
it's easier to pronounce correctly if you don't shave your arm pits. :wink:
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Post by MTGuru »

Right ... Em-bouch-ure is easy to remember if you know French "bouche" (mouth) ... as in "Fermez la bouche!" I usually hear AAHM-boo-shure or AAHM-buh-shure in Anglay, among us latte drinking whistlers. :-)

In my experience, the generalization is that whistles with larger (taller/wider) windways and/or wider beaks tend to respond more dramatically to embouchure tricks. That includes most low whistles, of course. Also Susatos and Copelands, among others. Generation type whistles seem least sensitive.

The key dimensions of whistle embouchure are:

o Depth
o Angle
o Elevation
o Aperture
o Shape

Depth: How much of the beak you take into your mouth. From just touching the tip of the whistle to your lips, to "eating" a good deal of the beak. A shallow embouchure allows more angle and aperture control. With a deep embouchure, your upper lip tends to act as an air dam above the fipple window, and may strengthen the tone, particularly toward the bottom range. For example, this effect is noticeable on the Copeland D.

Angle: This is the famous "playing sideways" thing. Beyond looking cool, it narrows the effective aperture and directs the airstream against the side of the windway, resulting in a breathier tone. This is particularly effective with Susatos for taming what is often criticized as a too-loud and/or too recorder-like tone. Works best with a shallow embouchure, the whistle just against the lips.

Elevation: The angle of the whistle relative to the body, from pointing toward the floor to pointing straight out. A downward position narrows aperture, and directs air toward to top of the windway. My Overton low D is sensitive to this, benefiting from a low elevation in the low register, and a straighter approach as you move up the range.

Aperture: The tightness of the lips, allowing control of the relative air pressure vs. air volume going into the instrument. Requires a shallow depth. Particularly useful for taming the upper notes of a shrill whistle, and can also be a side-effect of angle and elevation, as mentioned above.

Shape: The shape of the mouth cavity and the position of the tongue within the mouth, from a large "aaah" to a narrower "eeee" shape. I'm less convinced that this has a discernible effect on the tone perceived by the listener. But subjectively, the resonance of some whistles seem to come alive with a larger shape. And shape affects the movements of tonguing within the mouth. Of course, for circular breathing, the continual control of the mouth air chamber is essential.

I agree that obsessing about whistle embouchure is silly. It's far less critical than other fundamentals of breath control and fingering technique. But not much different from fiddlers thinking about bow tilt, or guitar players thinking about pick angle. It's fun and easy to experiment with, and might lead to interesting discoveries about the latent possibities of a given whistle.
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Post by CranberryDog »

Yes! Argumentum absurdum is just a gas. I am almost shure I missppelled something and I don't care. MT, ya hit it on the head.
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Post by jemtheflute »

Thomas-Hastay wrote:Squidy! This is exactly why I prefer "Voicing Ornamentation" to "Embouchure" (I like American English terminology).

side note: The term "Fipple" is the nomenclature for the "Plug" in a Duct Flute, not the name of the Voicing/Embouchure. I don't understand why people insist on using this term. Maybe it's the same reason why people use G.Bush's term "Nucular"(Nook-you-lar) instead of the proper "Nuclear" (Nook-lee-ar).

Sorry! My Grandma was an english teacher!
You're quite right about the precise meaning of "fipple", though it does also in common usage get extended to mean the whole sound-generating head assembly of a fipple-flute - beak, plug, windway, window and labium, not entirely objectionably.

I don't follow your gloss on "embouchure" though! The French word means (implied content of its correct usage) "the formation of the mouth applied to the instrument to make a sound". The nearest we could come to a one-word literal translation in English would probably be "mouthing" - which is (apart from the strong influence of the French on all things woodwind since the Baroque) probably why we adopted the French word as the English loan-word technical term. It has nothing whatever to do with either voicing (small scale structural changes to an instrument itself to alter tone and intonation) or ornamentation. So, if you object to loan-words, you need to work on your mouthing for your whistle! :lol:

BTW, it's "new clee ar" in British English, not "nook....." Maybe that's why we tend to have less trouble than Americans pronouncing it? Bit like Americans bombing Iraq with handbooks for Catholic church services (missals)? :wink:

I didn't mean to upset anyone by my previous post, and I freely admit to being something of a pedant, though I mostly restrain myself from fussing over ordinary mistakes in writing, spelling, grammar or obvious typos - we all make those: but if a person is going to make use of technical jargon as in the case in point, I do think it matters, and it seems to me bizarre at the least to persistently mis-spell it in a way obviously not a typo in the context of 90% of thread contrubutors spelling it correctly!

Pyroh, I simply can't understand how mouthing the narrow beak of an Overton type whistle as if it were an oboe reed can possibly affect the tone. I can see that having your teeth in contact with that nasty metal could be uncomfortable (one reason I don't like 'em much) and that could be a reason for lip-buffering as you describe, but I can't see how it can make any difference at all to the airflow etc.

Denny, who in their right minds shaves their 'pits? It sure b****rs up your French pronunciation!
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Post by MTGuru »

Jem, I think Pyroh is just saying that ... in my terms ... he prefers the sound and response of his Overtons with a shallow depth and tight aperture. That makes sense to me, since high-backpressure Overtons need relatively little breath pressure to produce a nice stable tone in both octaves.
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Pyroh
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Post by Pyroh »

jemtheflute wrote: Pyroh, I simply can't understand how mouthing the narrow beak of an Overton type whistle as if it were an oboe reed can possibly affect the tone. I can see that having your teeth in contact with that nasty metal could be uncomfortable (one reason I don't like 'em much) and that could be a reason for lip-buffering as you describe, but I can't see how it can make any difference at all to the airflow etc.
I´ll tell you something - I quite like physics and I believe I understand how simple things go...yet I I can´t understand this either. I´m blowing the same pressure, really, yet when I shape my mouth differently, it sounds differently. I don´t get it :-)
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Post by Brigitte »

Pyroh wrote:
jemtheflute wrote: Pyroh, I simply can't understand how mouthing the narrow beak of an Overton type whistle as if it were an oboe reed can possibly affect the tone. I can see that having your teeth in contact with that nasty metal could be uncomfortable (one reason I don't like 'em much) and that could be a reason for lip-buffering as you describe, but I can't see how it can make any difference at all to the airflow etc.
I´ll tell you something - I quite like physics and I believe I understand how simple things go...yet I I can´t understand this either. I´m blowing the same pressure, really, yet when I shape my mouth differently, it sounds differently. I don´t get it :-)
...actually how people hold the whistles in their mouths, tight or loose lips does change the sound of the whistles, biting is topping it. How to explain it physically correct I am not sure how to. I think there is not only one factor that comes in here and what I see all the time may not appear to all materials, but on metal as well as some wooden whistles you can reproduce different sounds on one instrument just in changing how you hold it in your mouth.

I believe it has to to with the resonance of the whistle body/material as well as the resonance of the players body/mouth/breathing system. The whistlebody is the amplifier not only what is produced in the head but also what is happening in your mouth or body. The connection of the two by how it is hold in the mouth may also influences what gets amplified. If you have a cold and rattling breath and play the whistle this rattling noise is hearable.

I am pretty sure that the teeth, bones in the mouth and the mouth cave are part of creating a particulars players sound, hence one whistle sounds different when played by different players. Depending how tight or how relaxed you hold a whistle the frequencies of the whistle/body can flow free or get disturbed, i.e. if it is held tight between the lips, possibly teeth pressed against the lips or even having direct teeth contact (uiiiiii) with the whistle the frequencies/swinging of the material is limited and may start rattling (exxagerated but hope you get the picture) and the mouth may amplify this "rattle" and it comes back out of the whistle in a sound that I would call a buzz....... I am not sure if my wording makes sense but what I see though a lot over the year is that if someone holds their instrument relaxed between their lips they usually create a smooth sound and if someone holds them with a tight mouth, tight lips or even teeth they produce an additional harsher sound that is underlying the characteristic sound of the instrument.

have a nice weekend
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Pyroh
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Post by Pyroh »

Brigitte wrote:
... if someone holds their instrument relaxed between their lips they usually create a smooth sound and if someone holds them with a tight mouth, tight lips or even teeth they produce an additional harsher sound that is underlying the characteristic sound of the instrument.
I think that´s precisely how I´d describe it...
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