Whistle and Banjo, Old-Time style

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:34 pm

Archaeochronistic is now the preferred term. Those damn professors.

One day while I was flat-picking some American fiddle tunes at the office, a colleague referred to them as "folk crap". Apparently that was her preferred term.

crookedtune · Post by **crookedtune** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:14 pm

Thomaston wrote:
crookedtune wrote:
BTW, the term 'old-timey' has pretty much run its course, and fallen from favor.
Ah, didn't know that. What's it called these days?

'Old-Time' seems to be preferred to 'Old-Timey'. No value judgement from me. I'm just the messenger.

FWIW, I do come from an "Old-Time Music" background. And both whistle and flute work very well for that repertoire, but are not generally accepted in sessions. That's just the way of the world, I guess.

My suggestion is to listen a lot, read a lot, and play a lot of music. It will all work out.

judith · Post by **judith** » Wed May 14, 2008 7:58 am

Hey - I liked your rendition of Cluck Old Hen with whistle. good banjo playing and whistling! One would think that the whistle would've been included in the tradition of old time music, since the folks who settled in Appalachia were largely of Scotch or Irish descent. But then, there's the percussive rhythm of the banjo (which I also play) - bum-ditty-bum-ditty, to contend with. I think that lends itself to reels, but less so to jigs. So, anyone playing the whistle back then (and now) would have had to leave out a lot of their repertoire, since the old time folks wouldn't be playing jigs. Thats my humble opinion, anyway.
Judith

Thomaston · Post by **Thomaston** » Wed May 14, 2008 2:32 pm

Too true. The biggest shortcoming of the clawhammer/frailing style of playing is that jigs become an advanced skill. Kinda ironic since many find jigs the easiest to learn on most other instruments.

jloug · Post by **jloug** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:07 am

Very nice! I hope you will post more tunes like it.

Björn · Post by **Björn** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:42 am

Thomaston wrote:I I remember seeing, not too long ago, a video of old-time clawhammer style banjo played with uilleann pipes and loving it.

You must mean this one: http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7zmd4rYh1o

kennychaffin · Post by **kennychaffin** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:52 am

Björn wrote:
Thomaston wrote:I I remember seeing, not too long ago, a video of old-time clawhammer style banjo played with uilleann pipes and loving it.
You must mean this one: http://youtube.com/watch?v=D7zmd4rYh1o

Wow, that bagpipe sounds just like a fiddle!

KAC

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Fri May 30, 2008 4:24 pm

judith wrote:One would think that the whistle would've been included in the tradition of old time music, since the folks who settled in Appalachia were largely of Scotch or Irish descent.

I was going to offer a caution against the unstated assumption here about the presence of whistles in Scottish music. But this new thread over in the Flute forum now covers what I planned to say.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=60259

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Fri May 30, 2008 9:17 pm

MTGuru wrote:
judith wrote:One would think that the whistle would've been included in the tradition of old time music, since the folks who settled in Appalachia were largely of Scotch or Irish descent.
I was going to offer a caution against the unstated assumption here about the presence of whistles in Scottish music. But this new thread over in the Flute forum now covers what I planned to say.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=60259

I think you are right about Appalachian Old Time.Your contribution in the thread in your link says a lot of what I was thinking while reading this this.

I'm not sure folks who's roots are not here (in my part of the Appalachian Mountains) realize how truly isolated people were due to our mountains. Anyone interested should read "Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephart.
We're talking never traveling even as much as 12 miles from home.
I'm sure that one reason for no whistles or flutes was that they were not mass produced when my people came here. That came about a century later. Plus, there was little bought by my ancestors. They were completely self-sufficent and the little contact that was made with outlanders/furriners was few and far between. This isolation kept us talking the old ways, living the old ways, and playing or singing the old songs brought over from way back when.

I grew up with "old time" music. I remember the first time that I realized that the songs I heard played as a kid when they were "makin' music" were actually Irish or Scottish or English songs that were brought over here by my ancestors and handed down through the generations. Wow! That is how I got interested in ITM and Scottish music. I was fascinated.

People often ask "What is Old Time", particularly the difference in it and bluegrass? I always say, "the difference is that people can sit and appreciate bluegrass, be amazed at the skill of the performers. Folks can't sit and listen to old time. Old time makes folks get up on their feet and dance!

Roscoe Holcumb is as fine an example of old time as you will find. I defy you to sit still and listen to this...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nOLplVapDjc&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-wGgvbHcgyc&feature=related

Here's a link to a tune played by the Spencer Family(Whitetop Mountain Band)- a really good OT local band. I've lifted a foot or two when ever I'm where they are playin'.What they play is like what I grew up with. That's one of the things about OT, there was usually a family "band". Everyone played something in every family or danced so they could make music together. My dad, brother and I did. Then all the families would get together on occasion and make even more music and the floor would be bouncin' with the dancin' feet.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6yNVv1SuPvo

That's a "mighty fine" clip of that whistle and banjo playin'. Keep it up!

MTGuru · Post by **MTGuru** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:05 am

Thanks for the foot-stompin' links.

And for the Kephart book rec. I read the descriptions on Amazon, and it looks very interesting, close to primary source material.

In turn, I'll recommend Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer as an excellent backgrounder to the broad picture of US settlement and regionalism, including Appalachia as a core culture area.

bepoq · Post by **bepoq** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:27 am

Read the Kephart a few years ago when I was down in the Smokeys. Very good indeed.

Sidhe · Post by **Sidhe** » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Nice work. I've had this same pairing bouncing about in my mind for a while. Probably due to that same same clip you mentioned. (I'm guessing we're talking this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7zmd4rYh1o .) Keep it up! By the way, what make of whistle and banjo are you using?

Stephen K.

The Laughing Imp · Post by **The Laughing Imp** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:29 am

Sounds great! I want to hear more.

I have a favorite blues tune I heard on Ken Burns' Jazz that showed me that any music can fit into any musical tradition provided the musician has chutzpah and skill. It's called "Jim and John" and it's just a fife and drum played blues style. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSt ... 7&s=143441 You can hear the African roots in the tune, plus the sound of the blues waiting to be born, but I never heard anyone play a fife like this before. It works.

Some of the explanations offered here go a long way towards explaining why the pennywhistle didn't make any inroads into bluegrass. We forget sometimes how disconnected the musicians of the world were from each other in the days before the internet.

First the styles developed individually, then tunes were borrowed and evolved, and then we had separate Bluegrass and Irish traditions.

It makes sense that people trying to preserve and celebrate the traditions would be resistant to new fangled instruments "better" suited for other traditions. But masters of their instruments forge the new traditions of tomorrow. And we have yet to see how the internet is going to affect these traditions going forward. It's really an exciting time for traditional music.

TheSpoonMan · Post by **TheSpoonMan** » Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:21 pm

The Laughing Imp wrote:Sounds great! I want to hear more.

I have a favorite blues tune I heard on Ken Burns' Jazz that showed me that any music can fit into any musical tradition provided the musician has chutzpah and skill. It's called "Jim and John" and it's just a fife and drum played blues style. http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSt ... 7&s=143441 You can hear the African roots in the tune, plus the sound of the blues waiting to be born, but I never heard anyone play a fife like this before. It works.

Some of the explanations offered here go a long way towards explaining why the pennywhistle didn't make any inroads into bluegrass. We forget sometimes how disconnected the musicians of the world were from each other in the days before the internet. First the styles developed individually, then tunes were borrowed and evolved, and then we had separate Bluegrass and Irish traditions.

It makes sense that people trying to preserve and celebrate the traditions would be resistant to new fangled instruments "better" suited for other traditions. But masters of their instruments forge the new traditions of tomorrow. And we have yet to see how the internet is going to affect these traditions going forward. It's really an exciting time for traditional music.

Let me be picky a second- bluegrass and oldtime are two different things. Oldtime is American folk, and it didn't come from Irish folk though they're certainly connected in some way. Bluegrass is a style from the last century that came out of Oldtime, Blues, and a bunch of other things. Good post tho

The Laughing Imp · Post by **The Laughing Imp** » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:41 am

TheSpoonMan wrote:Let me be picky a second- bluegrass and oldtime are two different things. Oldtime is American folk, and it didn't come from Irish folk though they're certainly connected in some way. Bluegrass is a style from the last century that came out of Oldtime, Blues, and a bunch of other things. Good post tho

I knew that. Honest.

There are three current threads here that are similar enough that I didn't specify Old Time as well. Didn't mean to make it confusing.

Makes me wonder what I got wrong on the other threads, too. We're talking about Irish Traditional Swing Timey, right?

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