Let's do it: Musican vs Collector (was silver thingie)

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:25 am

On 2002-02-27 10:13, Loren wrote:
You Peter,

Are a liar, and a troll. Don't misquote me.

Loren,

dare I say, "welcome back"?

I am glad to see you here, and your contribution in spicing things up a bit is appreciated.

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:40 am

On 2002-02-27 10:13, Loren wrote:
You Peter,

Are a liar, and a troll. Don't misquote me.

I most certainly did NOT tell you to shut up about anything. Peter, you owe me an apology.

Loren

I contacted you after an exchange on the price of a Copeland (was it?) low D at $409.
I don't have the corresponce, your summary is about correct, you were basically telling me to cease going at the subject the way I did, you did not literally say 'shut up'.
I don't think I went out of line to an extend I should apologize for anything. And I did mellow a bit since didn't I?

Graphics Guy · Post by **Graphics Guy** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:41 am

On 2002-02-27 10:20, Bloomfield wrote:
On 2002-02-27 10:02, Arcaic Lemons wrote:
Frankly, I am really amazed that this is even an issue.
Of course it's an issue and I suspect it's the same issue with hobby astronomers than it is with whistlers. I am sure there are hobby-astronomers who spend tons of money on a huge telescope with scandilapsed refractometer theodilapitatopers and 133/2 IR-7 vaulted hemi-prazzlers in Molybden tension-grade subcasings and terrawaggled Optoclysmic wide-bore eyepieces and computeres but who can't tell Betageuze from a Jupiter moon. Then there are some whose equipment is less expensive and perhaps a bit old, who have a different sort of passion and knowledge and who actually read the Proceeds of the Astronomical Society. And I wouldn't be suprised if there were a prejudice among hobby astronomers establishing a reverse linear correlation between the price of ones equipment and ones grasp of astronomy.

Just as silly as comprable prejudices among whistlers, I am sure. But these prejudices wouldn't exist, I think, if the collector-player division were so easy. I rather suspect that there is a desire in collectors to be perceived as players. That would explain attitudes like defensiveness about one's expensive whistle or pride in one's cheapo: "Look! I play a Generation (therefore I understand the music)."

Actually ? No, Most newcomers buy something real cheap, (At least here in the US)and therein lies the problem. You can buy a good cheap whistle. You CANT buy a good cheap telescope, unless you define cheap as costing
400 and up, You could go and get an entry level scope for 299 (4.5 inch reflector, shaky mount,low grade eyepiece)and most people would do well with that. My 8 inch SCT
cost 1500, To get a really good scope its 12 grand and maybe a 2 year wait to get on the waiting list for 2 years (Yep 4 years total)
I think its a different type of commitment.
Thje point Kari was making was, If you enjoy
collecting whistles, then buy to your hearts content. By the way Hunny Bunny ?..It'll be
9 grand total cost...I dont need the GOTO option,

Dan

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:49 am

Instruments like whistles are very easy to obtain, so anyone wishing to learn to play can buy a Generation for under $10 just about anywhere. A good musician can play beautifully on a Generation so doesn't need to purchase a whistle costing hundreds of $$ However, anyone who wants to can pay hundreds of dollars on a hand made whistle - (to play or collect, that is irrelevant). On the other hand, a potentially great concertina or pipes student cannot easily pick up an instrument to learn to play. Concertinas are rare and are so overpriced now to be beyond belief! The problem as you say Peter, is that "collecters" rather than players are buying up all the available concertinas.
With concertina's and pipes this means not enough instruments, or ridiculously overpriced instruments making it nearly impossible for prospective students to learn to play.
On the other hand with high-priced whistles, if somebody has the money and wants to spend it, that is their perogitive, they are not depriving somebody else from learning to play the whistle (they can buy a Generation)
My point is that anyone who wants to pay a lot of money on a hand made whistle is not doing any harm - just as long as they don't suddenly decide to "collect" concertinas and other rare instruments!!
Sue

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:55 am

On 2002-02-27 10:49, Whistlepeg wrote:

My point is that anyone who wants to pay a lot of money on a hand made whistle is not doing any harm - just as long as they don't suddenly decide to "collect" concertinas and other rare instruments!!
Sue

Good point! I daresay that expensive whistle collectors are doing some good. They are creating the demand that supports several high-end whistle makers. It is these makers who refine and develop the instrument, like Burke with his perturbed bore or Copeland with his organ-pipe windway, etc etc. The standard of quality for tuning and playability has gone up and I think this has also acted to improve the cheapos: I would mention the SweeTone (fipple design by B Overton) and the Feadog Mk III. Who knows, maybe the soon-to-be-announced Mildred whistle will be further evidence of this.

_________________
/bloomfield

EDIT: The SweeTone fipple was designed by Michael Copeland not Bernard Overton. Sorry for the slip.

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-02-28 18:50 ]

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 9:57 am

On 2002-02-27 10:41, Graphics Guy wrote:

Actually ? No...

So I'm wrong. But you could have at least complimented me on my grasp of the technical aspects of astronomy equipment. :roll:

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:07 am

Peter,

Well, I suppose I'm not (physically) close enough to twist your arm for that apology, but at least we agree that I didn't tell you to shut up.

And yes, I do believe you've generally expressed yourself, since then, in ways that make people more receptive to what you have to say (this all very odd coming from me of course...) Seriously Peter, You clearly have the experience and knowlege of Irish Music that few who read this board will ever have the opportunity to gain, so you're a valuable member and resource here, now if you'd just quit misquoting me.......

Loren (who's going back to selling off his expensive whistles that would be better put to use in the hands of orphans.......)

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:13 am

I personally don't care much for collecting and but I do value the opinions of those that do. I wish this message board would offer more about technique, style, and oh yeah..let's not forget the tunes.

I don't really find info on whistles as instruments as helpful as I do information on flutes. Flutes require so much more wind that if you get a bad one you'll end up passed out on the floor and much more discouraged then if you end up with a $6 whistle that's out of tune.

I also think the term "Elitist" can be used for those who may have better technique and gleefully point out "so-and-so in the corner with her high-priced instrument that can't play worth a darn".

p.s. Glad to see you around Loren!

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:18 am

On 2002-02-27 11:13, CraigMc wrote:

I also think the term "Elitist" can be used for those who may have better technique and gleefully point out "so-and-so in the corner with her high-priced instrument that can't play worth a darn".

Only that "so-and-so in the corner" was Joanie Madden, of course.

Graphics Guy · Post by **Graphics Guy** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 10:30 am

On 2002-02-27 10:57, Bloomfield wrote:
On 2002-02-27 10:41, Graphics Guy wrote:

Actually ? No...
So I'm wrong. But you could have at least complimented me on my grasp of the technical aspects of astronomy equipment. :roll:

Sorry you're right, In fact I copied that and posted it to my SCT user group, Never have I heard such a well thought out technical description.
Wayyyyyy better than "You know..That curved plate glass thingy on the front, with the black doohickey in the center"

Dan

curioso · Post by **curioso** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:02 am

"Supply and Demand" has its blessings and curses. In our case, "demand" is produced by "real musicians" (i.e. those who are daring enough to play in public), duffers (myself included), and "collectors".

The bad part is that with those 3 types of "whistle consumers" competing for whistles, it drives up prices and waiting periods for the top makers (e.g. Copeland, Sindt).

The good part is that those top makers can now really make a living, and even afford to eat! It also encourages new full and part-time makers & models to enter the scene (e.g. Burke, Rose, Dixon, Hoover).

Like most commodities there are boom and bust periods. I am personally glad to be in a whistle boom period...

Byll · Post by **Byll** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 11:35 am

A point, if I may...

I personally see a distinction between the really high priced whistles (possible elitist/collector territory) and the mid-priced ones. I have partaken of the product of Mike Burke and Mack Hoover, and now have a truly usable set from both smiths. I cannot speak for the really expensive suppliers, but I find that if a problem exists with a whistle from either of the above mid-priced suppliers, they will always go to both trouble and expense to expedite the situation. To have really playable instruments as a result of these transactions is worth a lot to me, personally.
I understand that with a very inexpensive instrument, I can always simply purchase another, or attempt a tweak myself, but I know my limitations. I would rather concentrate on my music - on using the instruments - than the limitations associated with them.
For obvious economic reasons, makers of inexpensive instruments usually cannot supply this service.
Cheers to all...a really interesting thread...
Byll

hillfolk22 · Post by **hillfolk22** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 12:49 pm

On 2002-02-27 09:42, tyghress wrote:

.

I could have bought a Yugo, but I much prefer my Honda. Those guys driving Mercedes, geez, talk about conspicuous consumption! They should be leaving those cars for people who can really use them.

Yeh, And I would love to own one of those Dodge Diesle pick-ups. I just love the sound! GRRRRRR. Yet, I have nothing that would justify getting one. Nothing to haul. So I have to settle for a Ford Ranger.

OnT... I can see your point. Collectitis can be pretty costly and time consuming. I have preached to my children many a times about it. Like the beanie baby thing. People would store them in a case and never play with them. I never encouraged that with my daughter. She loves and plays with them. And there's also the pokemon trading card rage... Now, my Sons realize that collecting those cards was a huge waist.

And I am just as guilty. I have aquired a few more whistles since I have joined. I would call them much wiser investments.
I do not play in sessions either. But I value a good sounding whistle and I play mine mostly in church settings. It is the closest I can get to flute.

I guess my biggest thing I collect is rocks.
Now that can be a cheap hobby. Although, I was at the rock shop today and could of chunked $80 into a hunk of green meteor the size of a quarter.

I had to remind myself. No I plan on going for a low D someday.

I guess the key again is moderation and the realization that you can't take it with you when you pass on... That's when they become heirlooms. The sad truth is your heirs may not hold the same value of your posessions as you did.

Good topic to think about.

Laura

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:06 pm

I have observed that we in the U.S. oftentimes suffer from what I call The Anacin Syndrome: When we attack a problem, we want "Fast, Fast, Fast Relief." This can lead to ludicrous results, as when someone decides to take up backpacking and figures that buying all the "right" gear can make up for his complete lack of knowledge, experience, and good sense. These are the sorts of people who generally seem to think that having a map with you will keep you from getting lost. It won't, of course. You have to A) know how to use it, and B) use it, in order to keep from getting lost.

I expect that sort of thing may, and does, happen with whistles: "If I buy a really good whistle, then I'll sound really good right away." Here, "really good" equals "really expensive." It's The Anacin Syndrome.

On the other hand, I started out with the fife and learned early on how badly one can be limited by an inferior ( cheap ) instrument. I went through several different fifes before I found one that played easily and sweetly. Generally, with fifes "cheap" equals "unplayable," so I discovered, and the one I'm using now is relatively expensive for a fife. My wife knew this, and thought to cut the learning curve short when she bought me a pennywhistle for my birthday a couple of years ago. It turns out that quality in whistles isn't quite like that in fifes, but we didn't know that at the outset.

It seems pretty obvious to me, though, that a finely-crafted hand-made instrument has the potential to deliver much better tone than one which is mass-produced, and the former will doubtless cost more than the latter. The unknown quantity is the player. We all know that a high-end whistle can produce garbage in the hands of the inept, and a cheap whistle can ( often ) be made to sound good in the hands of an expert. It's not the whistle so much as the nut screwed onto the fipple that matters.

I note parenthetically that at least one widely-recognized expert whistler famously plays O'Riordan whistles, which are not considered cheap.

So who's right? Everyone, in part, and that's why the debate will never go away. Yep, there are people in the world who can't blow their noses, let alone a note, regardless of how much they spend on a whistle. Still, it's a free country -- for the present -- and they are at liberty to pay as much as they wish for something they can't use.

It ultimately hinges on the question "what do you want to do with your music?" If you want a more traditional sound, then set about mastering a Generation, for example. If you really like the tone of a Copeland, then save your pennies and get one. Do the same if you just think they are beautiful and you like having beautiful things to work with. Beyond that, "let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen, for we be brethren."

Sneering at someone when his whistle doesn't match one's prejudice is a act of bigotry. Let me instead hear what he's doing with it.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Wed Feb 27, 2002 1:19 pm

This is indeed old territory - who remembers the photo of Jessie's whistles and the great firestorm I provoked a year and half ago with my "what a turn-off" comment?

Like Peter I've mellowed a little since then and I think those of us on both sides of the divide are doomed not to understand where the other side is coming from.

In the end I think it's a cultural difference that is down to ingrained attitudes towards affluence and materialism on different sides of the Atlantic, and also down to the place of the tinwhistle as a humble, unpretentious (and greatly loved) instrument in the Irish tradition.

There was a lively discussion last summer after Azalin, who was as big a WhOA maniac as you could wish to meet, went to Ireland and "saw the light".

In my contribution to that thread, with a view to explaining to people why their collections of whistle hardware might arouse smiles or less polite reactions in Ireland, I compared the expensive-whistle-owning beginners with middle-aged novice cyclists who buy a very expensive bike and all the super clothing so that they look like pro sportsmen but they haven't got the leg muscles to get up the first hill...

This is something that would make people laugh in Britain and Ireland, at least back when I was young, but maybe not in North America. Am I onto something here?

You can find the thread started by Azalin <a href="http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... 1">here</a>.

Edit PS: while I was writing this Neil's contribution appeared, giving a name to the my cycling metaphor - nice one Neil. We agree on something at last!

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-02-27 14:21 ]