Back pressure of the more expensive whistles

[iwilson]

Just curious ... why do some (all?) of the more expensive whistles have more back pressure?

Whats the reasoning behind this? What does it achieve?

Thanks
Ian

[Adrian]

Certainly not all of the more expensive whistles have a lot of back pressure, in fact some of them can be very easy players. However, there are some more expensive whistles that do have quite a lot of back pressure e.g. Beazley and Overtons (using examples from my rack). Players have individual tastes as to how much back pressure they like. I for one like quite a bit of resistance as it gives me more dynamic control, sometimes expressed as being able to 'lean into the tune'. Whistles with back pressure often require less air volume i.e you can play longer without taking a breath.

[usfenderfsdlx]

This is a good question. I think I moderate to medium-high backpressure is all around good. Susato, Burke, Howards are in this range. The Howards have the most backpressure out of those 3. Really high backpressure (Overton, as mentioned) is good too, and a lot of people like it. Colin Goldie, who used to make Overtons and now makes his own line, can adjust the backpressure to your taste. I plain old don't like anything less than moderate backpressure (Clarkes, Shaws). Not my thing.

[MTGuru]

Yeah, what Adrian said.

Basically, the premise here is off. I find that whistle pressure curves are extremely varied, with no particular correlation to cost. For example, Copelands have notoriously low backpressure, while, say, the Dixon Trad has relatively high backpressure, relative to the light breath required. Every whistle will give some backpressure at the top of the curve.

Far more important for expression, I think, is the breath curve itself. Whistles with a long, stable, fairly flat breath plateau and a well-defined break point offer more stable intonation, some dynamic range, and ability to push and "play the chirp". Backpressure may allow a longer blow, but is not inherently expressive. And personal preferences and expectations for these characteristics may be very individual and, again, have little to do with whistle cost. It's part of what makes evaluating different whistles interesting ... and frustrating.

[whistleman922]

i would add that even among any brand of whistle there is variation in the amount of back pressure between individual whistles. I prefer to play Colin Goldie's whistles and the variation in tone, breath, back pressure, articulation, varies between each one. perhaps not to a very large degree, but to a certain extent. I would just say that, if you're looking for a whistle with certain characteristics don't disregard a brand of whistle just because they have a reputation or tendency you don't like. You might over look the perfect whistle for you.

[walrii]

Whistles with a long, stable, fairly flat breath plateau and a well-defined break point offer more stable intonation, some dynamic range, and ability to push and "play the chirp".

"Breath plateau"
"Well-defined break point"

Could we get definitions please? These are new terms, at least to me. (I think I know what you are getting at but you know what they say about "assume.")

[MTGuru]

Could we get definitions please?

Sure. It's basically the breath pressure vs. pitch curve. As you increase the pressure from zero on a given note, the indistinct pitch rises rapidly at first, until it stabilizes close to the desired pitch. At that point, blowing increasingly harder should produce only a small rise in pitch until you reach the discontinuity where the tone suddenly breaks into harmonic instability. The length and slope of this plateau, the position on the plateau where the whistle is best in tune, and the steepness of the break point at the top, are what determine how the whistle plays. You can also map backpressure, volume, and complexity along the length of the plateau.

I find that the curve can vary wildly from one whistle to another - not to mention from note to note on the some whistles. As can the apparent expectations on the part of makers as to where on the curve the whistle "should" be played (sometimes based, I suspect, on less than expert playing ).

For example, I think many "serious" players expect a whistle to play well at the top end of the plateau - both for tonal complexity, and for an easy push to the break point. Casual players, on the other hand, may prefer a sweet spot near bottom end or middle of the plateau, because this makes for an easier-playing whistle, though at the expense of some expressiveness. In either case, consistent intonation at the same relative spot along the curve for each note is a good thing.

To cite a few examples ... I have one whistle with a very steep plateau, that I could not get to play in tune with itself. Finding the right pitch along the plateau seemed like a complete guessing game for each note. Until I realized that the whistle is intended to be played at the very left end of the plateau with minimal breath (confirmed by the maker). It is, in effect, a beginner-friendly whistle that wouldn't appeal to most trad players.

Typical Gen-type whistles have a short but flat plateau, with a sharp discontinuity at the top. You hit the pitch by locking in on the plateau, while never being more than a short breath push away from exploiting the top edge. This also describes my Sindts.

My Burke high D has a curve similar to a Gen, but with a longer fairly flat plateau, and shifted overall to the right (i.e., it takes more breath, and is inherently louder). The curve shape is also very consistent note to note. This is part of what makes it a nice session whistle. It plays easily and consistently in tune anywhere along most of the plateau, so you can concentrate more on fingering and phrasing and less on breath control.

My Goldie/Overton high D has one of the longest, pitch-stable plateaux of any whistle, with increasing volume throughout. This makes it a great whistle for dynamic expression. The break point far to the right makes it harder to chirp, but the inherent complexity of the tone compensates for that.

These are things I look for in evaluating the "feel" of a whistle, and for preferring one to another for a particular use (in addition to tone, volume, etc., of course). Stuff like the appearance, material (wood, metal, plastic), and cost are secondary.

No, I don't have any way to measure or graph these curves empirically. So it's more a rough conceptual handle than a scientific test. But one that seems to make sense to other experienced whistle players I've talked to.

[walrii]

Thanks, MT. That's pretty much what I thought but, as always, there was more there than I imagined. Now I must resist the urge to play scales on different whistles while looking at a tuner rather than practicing!

[usfenderfsdlx]

Off topic, but I have just noticed that the original poster is from Edinburgh. NICE place, from what I've seen and heard. I had two of my best friends spend a year over there for a study abroad thing they were doing with their university. The went over and studied at Edinburgh University. Nice looking area, nice looking city.

[hans]

No, I don't have any way to measure or graph these curves empirically. So it's more a rough conceptual handle than a scientific test. But one that seems to make sense to other experienced whistle players I've talked to.

thanks for your thoughts on this MT! I imagine it should be possible to produce empirical graphs, if one would use an apparatus delivering controllable air pressure.

I wonder though if what we call "backpressure" is not a little misleading. Is it not mainly the resistance to airflow of the windway which we associate with "backpressure", i.e. how easy or hard it is to blow air into the whistle (for acceptable tones)? It is not the same as the backpressure needed to play a clarinet or trumpet for instance. So flow resistance might be a better term I think. In whistle design that translates to the size of the windway: the narrower the slot, the more resistance.

Also I think the "sweet spot" has no empirical meaning for whistles. If anything it refers to what the whistle maker intended how the whistle should be played: i.e its build in resistance and the intended average air flow to sound "right". For a flute's embouchure hole "sweet spot" has a much more precise and rather different meaning.

[pancelticpiper]

Odd maybe, but I've played whistles a long time and I never think about "backpressure".

When I did a lot of back-to-back testing of four Low D whistles for a review here, I didn't include that. I've played most of the whistles out there and I'm not entirely sure what "backpressure" even is.

To me, a whistle's performance comes down to things like

-how long a phrase can be played on a single breath
-how much "room" there is on the notes to move pitch around
-how strongly low notes can be "pushed" without breaking
-how clearly gracenotes pop out
-the ability to "play between the octaves"
-and of course how in-tune it is!

All of that technical talk sort of makes my head hurt.

[peeplj]

There are two different but related concepts here.

One is how much air a whistle takes to sound its tones...the volume of air, not necessarily the speed at which is moves. This is resistance...how "much" you have to blow.

The other term is backpressure. Backpressure refers to the amount of air pressure needed to make a whistle sound...how "hard" you blow as opposed to how "much" you blow.

Consider, if you would, the Clarke whistle, and the Burke. Neither require hard blowing, but the Clarke takes much more air (has less resistance) than the Burke. Neither of these whistles has much backpressure, though--neither one has to be blown with much force in order to make a sound.

At the other end of the backpressure scale are whistles like the Overton and the O'Brien...these whistles will either produce a very anemic sound or no sound at all if blown with the same low pressure that you'd use for a Burke. And again, not all whistles are the same--the Overton has high backpressure but only medium resistance; the O'Brien rover has high backpressure and high resistance (you blow hard, and you aren't moving much air through the whistle either).

--James

[swizzlestick]

I have not played (or even seen up close) a Goldie/Overton. Or an O'Brien. So these comparisons don't help me much.

I have generally thought of Reyburn whistles as high back pressure, medium resistance whistles. And they do seem to exhibit the long, flat plateau just discussed. Do I have the terminology right and am I off track?

[hans]

There are two different but related concepts here.

One is how much air a whistle takes to sound its tones...the volume of air, not necessarily the speed at which is moves. This is resistance...how "much" you have to blow.

The other term is backpressure. Backpressure refers to the amount of air pressure needed to make a whistle sound...how "hard" you blow as opposed to how "much" you blow.

I am still not happy with this explanation, but thanks for trying!
If I compare high D whistles from Overton, Burke, Reyburn for instance, I find that all of them sound immediately with extremely little air to blow, i.e. little breath, little wind. They don't need much pressure at all to speak. But the differences show when trying to blow the first overblown notes, the second octave notes: the Burke needs less wind speed to sound the second octave than the Reyburn, and the Overton needs even more than the Reyburn. Both Overton and Reyburn need to be pushed harder to sound the second octave notes. So they need a higher pressure to sound the second octave, but not the first. The Burke is much easier to push into the second octave, the Overton can be tricky, as it needs a lot extra push for the second octave, and there seems to be a dirty "in between" region, not a clean transition. So it is more demanding to play clean. At least this is my impression from some Overtons I play.

Physically the extra pressure required to go from a bottom octave note to the note in the octave above relates to the speed of the wind sheet exiting the windway. A narrow windway makes it more difficult (offers more resistance) to increase the wind to the required speed. Both the Overton and the Reyburn have a narrower windway than the Burke, and so need to be pressed harder to play second octave notes.

[peeplj]

If you are encountering a "dirty in-between region" when playing the Overton, I would be inclined to think that you aren't adequately supporting the airstream in either octave.

Also there's a lot more involved in balancing the octaves when playing whistle than just blowing harder. "Whistle embouchure" has been discussed on several threads and they are recommended reading.

--James