Tin Whistle embellishments

[iwanttotoot]

I was wondering if there is a good place I could look embellishment symbols up?

Are taps, cuts, rolls, slides etc inserted in some music or do we add them where we want?

I also have a question about the little symbol in this piece. What are those little inverted s's? I figure it was slides but I'm not sure

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5816

thanks much

[Bothrops]

Those are rolls. In sheet music sometimes there are marked the cuts/taps and rolls (more rarely, I've seen slides as well).

I don't know if there is a webpage where you can see the symbols, sorry. Let's see if someone know it!

[Tucson Whistler]

That's a roll (or long roll?). Here's a link that describes different ornaments.

http://www.whistleworkshop.co.uk/ornament.htm

EDITED for correct website

[sbfluter]

The symbols are not standardized and they are not always included in the sheet music. You put them where they sound good.

A few folks do add them, such as Grey Larsen, who does it rather extensively, marking up every possible kind of ornament with a different symbol. And once in a while ordinary sheet music will indicate a roll with a good old-fashioned turn symbol, (but you know that a roll is not a turn, right?)

[iwanttotoot]

thanks much fellas

[Ctrl Alt Del]

I too have been working through practicing ornamentation and was wondering...

What fingering do you use when doing a long roll from B, in the key of G so you have a C natural? Standard fingering (which seems pretty tricky) or is there a cheat or short cut.

[Key_of_D]

I too have been working through practicing ornamentation and was wondering...

What fingering do you use when doing a long roll from B, in the key of G so you have a C natural? Standard fingering (which seems pretty tricky) or is there a cheat or short cut.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. A roll is a roll, no matter what key you're playing in. So are you asking how to roll on the B note? Or are you asking how to roll on C natural?

X = closed, while O = open - The 1st 3 digits starting from the left are the top hand, while the last 3 are for the bottom hand.

The below is for Long Rolls:

The basic long roll for B is simple.

Start with playing B:

XOO OOO

Cut with the C finger or T1:

OOO OOO

Which leads back you to B:

XOO OOO

Then tap with B finger or T2:

XXO OOO

Then you've finished the roll and are back to B:

XOO OOO

You can long roll a C natural, but it is tricky. In my experience with ITM, there's not too much demand for rolling this note on a key of D instrument, but there are a few instances when you can if desired. First you have to play your C natural as: OXX XOX

So play C natural:

OXX XOX

You "cut" actually a tap, with B2 or the F finger, so:

OXX XXX

After "cutting" with B2, you're back to:

OXX XOX

You then tap with T1 or the C finger, so:

XXX XOX

After tappng you're back to the beginning with:

OXX XOX

Obviously with your cuts and taps, you don't want any distinguishable note durations for them, they should come out as blips. If you're having troubles with this, it will come in time, remember to keep your fingers relaxed at all times.

Cheers,

[pancelticpiper]

Control Alt Delete: the fingerings for cuts don't necessarily correspond to the fingerings for melody notes. For a cut you just lift one finger no matter what pitch comes out.
For example, when you do A cuts you only lift the upper-hand ring finger, not all the fingers which would be lifted to play a melody note A.
So, an A cut on bottom D would be:
xxx xxx (bottom D)
xxo xxx (the A cut, the pitch of which will be around a half-step flat)
xxx xxx (bottom D)
Likewise a C cut on A will sound C natural regardless of the tune's key signature:
xxo ooo (melody A note)
oxo xxx (C cut)
xxo ooo (melody A note)
And a C cut on B will sound C sharp regardless:
xoo ooo (B melody note)
ooo ooo (C cut, actually C sharp)
xoo ooo (B melody note)
The unstability of the whistle, when all six holes are momentarily open, is why a lot of people leave the bottom finger down for G, A, B, and C.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Thanks guys.

I think I'm starting to get it. I had assumed that if you were playing in the key of Gmajor a long roll on B would be B then C natural B, A, B.

It sounds like the issue is the rhythm of cut and the tap rather than the absolute pitch. Just grinding a bit more of the 'classical' training out!

[pancelticpiper]

It sounds like the issue is the rhythm of cut and the tap rather than the absolute pitch. Just grinding a bit more of the 'classical' training out!

Exactly!!! It's all about the rythm. If played correctly, cuts and taps occur so quickly that 1) they do not detract time from the melody notes and 2) their exact pitch is not an issue.
So, in playing a long roll on E, you should be able to play three E's of exactly equal time, the E's seperated first by a cut and then a pat:
xxx xxo (melody E)
xxo xxo (A cut)
xxx xxo (melody E)
xxx xxx (bottom D pat)
xxx xxo (melody E)
and if the cut and pat are played correctly ie quickly enough the timing of those three E melody notes should sound exactly the same as when you tongue out three E's.
That's why I don't like to call cuts and pats "ornaments", because they aren't. They are a way to articulate notes of the same pitch by a means other than the tongue.
The pitch of cuts gets really strange when you're cutting middle D. Try playing a roll on middle D thus:
oxx xxx (D melody note)
oxx oxx (G cut)
oxx xxx (D melody note)
oxo xxx (A cut)
oxx xxx (D melody note)
These cuts, though conceptualised as G and A, both actually sound C natural, and being lower in pitch than the melody note, could be thought of as being pats.
Now do the same middle D roll but use the closed fingering for middle D (which trad players do all the time)
xxx xxx
xxx oxx
xxx xxx
xxo xxx
xxx xxx
Now these cuts are strange high notes.
You can actually raise the topmost finger, changing from a closed middle D to an open middle D in the middle of the roll so that the middle D roll sounds like a proper roll, having the first gracenote higher and the second lower.
xxx xxx
xxx oxx
xxx xxx
oxx xxx
oxo xxx
oxx xxx
It all takes place very quickly.
The main problem people coming from "classical" music seem to have with cuts and pats is not playing them quickly enough. It's like they want to have it heard as a note. Cuts and pats shouldn't be heard as notes, rather they are interruptions of notes.
Pats especially are difficult to get quick enough. Usually the reason is the finger action: the "classical" player usually tries to play a cut by simply moving the finger from its "guide position" (classical players will know what this means) to the hole. This doesn't produce a quick enough pat. Rather, you should raise the finger higher a moment before the pat (two or three inches above the whistle) so that it has space to accelerate to the necessary speed. Pats only sound "right" if 1) the finger completely seals the hole and 2) the pat is executed quickly enough.
It usually takes "classical" players who are new to Irish music a few weeks to get their cuts and pats up to speed.

[iwanttotoot]

I'm concentrating on doing cuts for now. I saw them on whistletutor and they were easy, then I watched father duns, video and his are completely different.

He does it so quickly barely lifting his finger. I like his better but I see I have a lot of practice to get to that standard. I imagine whistletutor just did his that way because we're beginners.