Look up a coupla posts G old chap!glauber wrote:I'm interested in that Jackie too, not for me but for a friend (the fact that it's English system may be a good thing). If anyone has actually played one, please let me know what you thought.DaleWisely wrote:Hm. That "Jackie" thing looks interesting. They'll give you a credit worth the full purchase price of the Jackie if you upgrade with them. Looks like this instrument is made in China to their specifications. That would explain the low price, I suppose.
g
Concertina?
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GaryKelly
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Re: Concertina?
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner-
glauber
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I think we're posting at the same time. You may want to check the "second edition" Jackie for the extra notes.
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!
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GaryKelly
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Must be a time-space continuum warp bubble then, cos I posted mine more'n an hour before...glauber wrote:I think we're posting at the same time. You may want to check the "second edition" Jackie for the extra notes.
Re the Second Edition:
"30 keys, ranging from G below middle C to the second C above middle C. Fully chromatic.
The 2nd edition goes 3 notes (Bb, B, C) higher than the 1st edition, but misses the double notes."
It's that "misses the double notes" that alarms and intrigues. Which notes have been chopped? By keeping to 29 keys (the 30th is just an air button) but sacrificing "the double notes" (whatever they are) then the keyboard layout can't be identical to a standard English.
That could definitely cause problems when the time comes to upgrade.
I upgraded to a Lachenal fairly soon after buying the Jackie (1st edition) because I became quickly irritated by the lack of B2. But there are many many tunes that never go up to the second B. I just got hung up on that missing note I think.
As for playing the Jackie, as I said, it's loud. Steel reeds for one thing. It's at least double the volume of my brass-reeded Lachenal. It'd stand up well in a session (unless there's a piano accordion player in the building!).
The action is fast, certainly fast enough for any beginner wishing to check out the 'tina.
It's heavy, much heavier than a Lachenal, and it's big too, a lot bigger'n a Lachenal. But the buttons are, as the makers correctly state, laid out exactly as the originals, which makes upgrading a doddle.
Bellows are waxed paper, which tends to creak and groan a lot from brand new until they get used to being used. With care though, they'll last a long time (though possibly not as long as the original leather/card bellows).
It's possible to add a home-made neckstrap just by removing the knurled thumbstrap screws (they've a convenient sharp point on), pushing the screw through the neckstrap material, and replacing the screws. They're plenty strong enough to bear the weight of the box. With the weight of the box, I'd definitely recommend a neck-strap.
They don't do the trade-in deal here in the UK
I said in my previous post that the Jackie makes for a perfect beginner's instrument apart from the lack of the B2 on the right-hand end. But that's clearly for the "first edition" model. I don't think I could say the same for the second edition though, because those missing "double notes" could definitely cause problems for a beginner upgrading to a modern EC or an original Lachenal/Wheatstone EC.
Hope this helps!
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner
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GaryKelly
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Now there's a case of posting at the same time!DaleWisely wrote:I just did a search on concertina.net and read much of what people have to say about the Jackie. It really gets surprisingly respectable reviews considering the price. Of course, it's the English system and that is an issue. It looks like the #2 model might be the better way to go.
Dale
I'd have to disagree with you on both points I think, the second for reasons I mentioned above.
As for the first ("Of course, it's the English system and that is an issue"), well, I gather there's still a huge amount of debate about which is best for ITM... Anglo or English. Come to think of it, I think there's not so much a debate as there is a flame war along the lines of "You can't play ITM on an English!"
I think that's got a lot to do with "pure drop" fixation than fact. Consensus is that the Anglo action lends itself better to dance music because of the inherent 'beat' created by the push/pull action (different notes on the push and pull), something the English doesn't have (same note on the push and pull).
Personally, I think it depends on the player. I'm sure Peter will let us know what the view from the front line is.
Certainly the English is apparently a lot more versatile in many respects...fully chromatic, capable of very fast playing (for example in Classical repertoire), simpler to learn (another contentious point, I concede!), and a good instrument for playing chordal accompaniment as well as melody.
Guess it depends what music you want to play.
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner-
Cayden
I know a few people who play Irish music quite handy on the English system.
I am not sure you can easily transpose a system of ornamentations as it has develeped to the English. My son is going to Noel Hill and is starting to get into the rolling, cranning etc. haven't heard that done on the English ever.
I am not sure you can easily transpose a system of ornamentations as it has develeped to the English. My son is going to Noel Hill and is starting to get into the rolling, cranning etc. haven't heard that done on the English ever.
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Cayden
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GaryKelly
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I agree entirely. I was remarking more on my lack of talent than on the capability of the box itselfPeter Laban wrote:That wasn't to say it can't be done, a whole system has developed though for the Anglo C/G and for continuity's sake it makes in a way sense to stand on the shoulders of those wo went before, who put their time in devoping the styles as they are now.
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner
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anniemcu
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I am also in the 'can't afford what I really want' seat, and do know that starting with a cheapie is starting with handicaps. That said, I'll look at this ebay one from a different perspective... feedback.
The seller appears to have excellent feedback, however - there are 15 negative feedbacks in the last year, and on the first page are four expressing problems with quality and refunds. 4 out of the last 20 - that's 20% dissatisfaction - that's not a good average at all, and is enough for me to say "No way!" even if the price seems great. The old "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is"
The seller appears to have excellent feedback, however - there are 15 negative feedbacks in the last year, and on the first page are four expressing problems with quality and refunds. 4 out of the last 20 - that's 20% dissatisfaction - that's not a good average at all, and is enough for me to say "No way!" even if the price seems great. The old "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is"
anniemcu
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http://www.sassafrassgrove.com
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"You are what you do, not what you claim to believe." -Gene A. Statler
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"Olé to you, none-the-less!" - Elizabeth Gilbert
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http://www.sassafrassgrove.com
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Paul Groff
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Hello all,
I don't want to seem to contradict anyone who has posted in this thread, since I believe there is room for different choices and opinions about this subject.
However, I do have a lot of experience teaching adult beginners the concertina and trying to find them suitable instruments at the best possible value, here in the US where prices tend to be high and availability low. So I would like to offer some alternative points of view to those expressed above. Of course if you lived where concertinas were abundant, or had a maker down the street, my suggestions might not be as useful.
I think that the standard 20 key C/G layout has enough notes for thousands of the best, most traditional Irish concertina tunes. In all the recordings I have heard of Mrs. Crotty, John Kelly sr, Kitty Hayes, etc., I have never heard a single tune (or a single note) that could not be easily played on a good quality 20 key. True, when recorded these musicians were usually playing on a 3 row anglo, but they did not use the 3rd row. This is not widely known, but should be given consideration by the many beginners - who may never learn to make such lovely music as these masters/mistresses of traditional music - who are free to volunteer their view that "you need 30 keys right away." On a 20 key C/G, the keys of G and C major are available, as has been mentioned, but also all of their modes (D dorian, A dorian, etc.), plus the "inflected" tunes in the tonality of G that use both F sharp and F natural. Then there are the many tunes that may sound major, but are pentatonic or hexatonic (using only 5 or 6 different notes), like "Rolling in the Ryegrass," "The Boyne Hunt," the "Kerry Polka," the "Bohola jig (Cooley's)" etc. These latter tunes can be played very comfortably in their "normal" key of D on a 20 key C/G. Then there are the many G and D mixolydian tunes - again, no problems.
If you believe as I do that an adult beginner in Irish music should have an interest in all the great players that make up the tradition, and that he or she should work on a decent quality of control of the notes and rhythm of a few tunes played slowly (rather than learning the whole O'Neill's book in a mediocre quality), then a dozen or so good tunes practiced to perfection with the guidance of a good teacher will be plenty of work for a few months or maybe much longer! A good quality 20 key will give you this option, without any doubt.
But there's the rub. The (hundreds of ?) thousands of cheap Lachenal 20 keys that clog ebay even today were made with short 5 fold bellows and very bad actions. Even when they have steel reeds and when restored to perfect, "as-new" condition, they are not as satisfactory as the standard rosewood 30 key Lachenals, even if (like Mrs. Crotty) you only use 2 rows, due to these inferior actions and bellows. However, the 2 rows (due to great supply and "no respect") are so underpriced that I have often invested in hot-rodding them with riveted actions and good 6-fold bellows. Then they are actually better-playing instruments than the "stock" 3 row Lachenals! -- like the great cajun or Quebecois melodeons that are "limited" (as some claim) by not having all the notes, but are much higher quality than many cheap 2 row button accordions. This contrarian approach of mine has enabled many of my students to learn on great-sounding and great-playing instruments with reliable action, good air supply, and the reed response they will later be handling when they graduate to a fine traditionally-constructed 3-row. Such 20 key hotrod Lachenals also hold their value when trading up, in my view an important consideration for a first instrument.
Of course, YMMV and dedicated students can learn on anything. But, using the approach I suggest, one of my students who in her 30s had never played an instrument before learned to play on a 20 key, and 6 months later was placed by Noel Hill in his advanced class (for one of his North American weeks), ahead of many with much more expensive instruments who had been playing much longer. Noel did look askance at her 20 key, I'm told, until he heard her deliver a couple of lovely tunes with good rhythm and phrasing.
Notably, this student had the humility and sense to suggest she would be better placed in the intermediate class, but she had to talk her way down to it!
True, there are ornaments used by many today that involve the C#, etc., even on G tunes, but again I raise the question of whether you might like to save some money, still play on a traditional-sounding instrument, and wait to use the notes Mrs. Crotty never used - until you are better than her at making great music
Finally, Peter (with great respect to one whose views I have learned from), wouldn't a D/A be the key to put most of Mrs. Hayes' arrangements into concert pitch? Mind you, I know she could find the keys also on a G/D by playing along the rows, but much of her repertoire on the recording is fingered "one step low," not a fourth high.
With best wishes to all,
Paul
I don't want to seem to contradict anyone who has posted in this thread, since I believe there is room for different choices and opinions about this subject.
However, I do have a lot of experience teaching adult beginners the concertina and trying to find them suitable instruments at the best possible value, here in the US where prices tend to be high and availability low. So I would like to offer some alternative points of view to those expressed above. Of course if you lived where concertinas were abundant, or had a maker down the street, my suggestions might not be as useful.
I think that the standard 20 key C/G layout has enough notes for thousands of the best, most traditional Irish concertina tunes. In all the recordings I have heard of Mrs. Crotty, John Kelly sr, Kitty Hayes, etc., I have never heard a single tune (or a single note) that could not be easily played on a good quality 20 key. True, when recorded these musicians were usually playing on a 3 row anglo, but they did not use the 3rd row. This is not widely known, but should be given consideration by the many beginners - who may never learn to make such lovely music as these masters/mistresses of traditional music - who are free to volunteer their view that "you need 30 keys right away." On a 20 key C/G, the keys of G and C major are available, as has been mentioned, but also all of their modes (D dorian, A dorian, etc.), plus the "inflected" tunes in the tonality of G that use both F sharp and F natural. Then there are the many tunes that may sound major, but are pentatonic or hexatonic (using only 5 or 6 different notes), like "Rolling in the Ryegrass," "The Boyne Hunt," the "Kerry Polka," the "Bohola jig (Cooley's)" etc. These latter tunes can be played very comfortably in their "normal" key of D on a 20 key C/G. Then there are the many G and D mixolydian tunes - again, no problems.
If you believe as I do that an adult beginner in Irish music should have an interest in all the great players that make up the tradition, and that he or she should work on a decent quality of control of the notes and rhythm of a few tunes played slowly (rather than learning the whole O'Neill's book in a mediocre quality), then a dozen or so good tunes practiced to perfection with the guidance of a good teacher will be plenty of work for a few months or maybe much longer! A good quality 20 key will give you this option, without any doubt.
But there's the rub. The (hundreds of ?) thousands of cheap Lachenal 20 keys that clog ebay even today were made with short 5 fold bellows and very bad actions. Even when they have steel reeds and when restored to perfect, "as-new" condition, they are not as satisfactory as the standard rosewood 30 key Lachenals, even if (like Mrs. Crotty) you only use 2 rows, due to these inferior actions and bellows. However, the 2 rows (due to great supply and "no respect") are so underpriced that I have often invested in hot-rodding them with riveted actions and good 6-fold bellows. Then they are actually better-playing instruments than the "stock" 3 row Lachenals! -- like the great cajun or Quebecois melodeons that are "limited" (as some claim) by not having all the notes, but are much higher quality than many cheap 2 row button accordions. This contrarian approach of mine has enabled many of my students to learn on great-sounding and great-playing instruments with reliable action, good air supply, and the reed response they will later be handling when they graduate to a fine traditionally-constructed 3-row. Such 20 key hotrod Lachenals also hold their value when trading up, in my view an important consideration for a first instrument.
Of course, YMMV and dedicated students can learn on anything. But, using the approach I suggest, one of my students who in her 30s had never played an instrument before learned to play on a 20 key, and 6 months later was placed by Noel Hill in his advanced class (for one of his North American weeks), ahead of many with much more expensive instruments who had been playing much longer. Noel did look askance at her 20 key, I'm told, until he heard her deliver a couple of lovely tunes with good rhythm and phrasing.
Notably, this student had the humility and sense to suggest she would be better placed in the intermediate class, but she had to talk her way down to it!
True, there are ornaments used by many today that involve the C#, etc., even on G tunes, but again I raise the question of whether you might like to save some money, still play on a traditional-sounding instrument, and wait to use the notes Mrs. Crotty never used - until you are better than her at making great music
Finally, Peter (with great respect to one whose views I have learned from), wouldn't a D/A be the key to put most of Mrs. Hayes' arrangements into concert pitch? Mind you, I know she could find the keys also on a G/D by playing along the rows, but much of her repertoire on the recording is fingered "one step low," not a fourth high.
With best wishes to all,
Paul
Last edited by Paul Groff on Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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radcliff
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could you consider something else?
well if you want to spend just a bit more..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7310843969
..........
Frank
well if you want to spend just a bit more..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 7310843969
..........
Frank
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Cayden
Paul, Kitty used to have a D/G stagi and for that reason went looking for a D/G, as i said she also played a lachenal in D/G during a WIllie week. after she bought the Marcus (which she isn't happy with) from Custy's Jackie Daly suggested she may have been better off with a different set up. So yes possibly. For the moment she's happy enough playing her own stuff a tone down on the lachenal she has. Which suits me finePaul Groff wrote:
Finally, Peter (with great respect to one whose views I have learned from), wouldn't a D/A be the key to put most of Mrs. Hayes' arrangements into concert pitch? Mind you, I know she could find the keys also on a G/D by playing along the rows, but much of her repertoire on the recording is fingered "one step low," not a fourth high.
With best wishes to all,
Paul
(I just sent Mark a 90 minute tape, you may want to listen to at least some of it).by the way, Kitty never plays a C natural in her tunes (that would B flat but we think in D even when playing a tune down) which is hard work avoiding clashes.
About the two row: every teacher I talked to (Dympna Sullivan, Noel Hill, Brid Meaney, Edel Fox. Yvonne Griffin, Hugh Healy) was dead against starting on a two row, 'it gives you bad habits'. That's why I mentioned it. My son was on the two row with Edel for over a year and he survived but he's more across the rows now than he could have been on the two row.